forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: Nigel Jackson on September 20, 2013, 06:54:35 PM
-
Hello All
On pages 30/31 in the latest edition of Windsock (29/4) there are two photographs showing Fokker D.VII pilots wearing Heinicke parachute harnesses over their coveralls. Now, I naively thought that maybe the pilots sat on the parachute but I've just read in that font of all wisdom Wikipedia (sic) that on fixed wing German aircraft of the period they were stored in some sort of compartment behind the pilot. But where? There's certainly no space between the rear of the seat and it's supporting frame. Are there any implications for us as modellers?
Best wishes
Nigel
-
I have always understood the pilots sat on them and that as a consequence seat cushions were dispensed with progressively from about May 1918 onwards. Dan San Abbott wrote a paper titled "German Parachutes in the Great War" but I can no longer find it online. Perhaps someone else has a copy?
Have a look at this thread:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/other-wwi-aviation/44676-question-about-parachute-harnesses-2.html
-
Red Baron and James, thanks as ever for getting back, and James for the link to the discussion thread.
You've both hit on what lay at the root of my question. Ever mindful of the creature comforts which might make life more comfortable for the pilots, I've always made a small cushion for their seat. So, I was wondering what to do this time with an aircraft at the very end of the war. Should I not bother with a cushion? After all, if they're wearing thick clothing and sitting on a cushion as well as a parachute the whole geometry of their position changes. Which begs another question. Were the seats adjustable, up and down, backwards and forwards? I haven't noticed anything to suggest this on a model, but perhaps I haven't been looking hard or carefully enough.
Best wishes
Nigel
-
Were the seats adjustable, up and down, backwards and forwards? I haven't noticed anything to suggest this on a model, but perhaps I haven't been looking hard or carefully enough.
On German scouts anyway, generally there was minimal provision for fore and aft adjustment but not up and down -- I guess more cushions or phone books for that. There were some very diminutive pilots so somehow they made do. Albatros seats ran on rails and could be adjusted back and forth. That said, I think the plane was fitted to the pilot so to speak by the crew chief, and I'm not sure the word "ergonomics" existed then.
-
I believe Max Meuller was "vertically challenged" and have seen references that follow Bo's logic in his case; his crews and / or Crew Chief modified seat/rudder arrangements to provide him with "ergonomic compatibility' as it was called when I flew. I recall a fellow Pilot on Voodoos who had a set of "blocks' similar to the bicycle ones we used as kids to allow his short legs to reach the rudder peddles! I suspect, in Meuller's case the additional bulk or spacing provided by a parachute would be a bonus!
Cheers,
Lance ;)
-
Without fully adjustable seats, it must have made for some very uncomfortable flying positions. Given the varied heights of the pilots sitting on "something" would have to be a necessity for the short guys.
Des.
-
Hello All
The problem with sitting on something - like one of these new-fangled parachutes - on a non-adjustable seat that is itself angled back (as in the EV) is that it will take your feet even further away from the rudder bar. No hope for me then!
Best wishes
Nigel
-
Thanks all for the info.
Bo Thanks for alerting me to the fact that Albatros fitted seats which were adjustable backward and forward (I wonder if there was a default setting in the middle or whether the delivered position just reflected the comfort of the last fitter to check things out?) Courtesy of the WingnutWings instructions for the DVa, I can see how the thing moved.
It raises a couple more questions in my mind. First, we sometimes lavish amazing attention to detail in finishing a cockpit and then decorating a model in the markings of a particular pilot. Obviously we lack hard evidence, but where we do know from period photographs that a particular pilot was small or tall should we be adjusting the seat position accordingly? Lance gives us the example of the very small Meuller but what about people like M. Richthofen? I've tended to think of him as being small, even by the standards of the early twentieth century.
Then, if a small pilot is in a DVa at the end of the war (?) with the seat pushed right forward, does that mean that there would be room to put a parachute behind the seat; or would the seat belts run the risk of things tangling up?
Best wishes
Nigel
-
I think only the later Albi's D.v's & D.Va's had the adjustment Bo mentioned. before that the mounts ran side to side, whether there was holes to allow the seat or rails to be moved I don't know.
Fokker however had a tube on tube sliding clamp arrangement between seat frame & the fuselage tubing that allowed up and down movement, I was reliably informed..... laughs. as reliable as can be anyway. I think theres a sketch of it in the olde Windsock Dr1 datafile special. Rolands of course had the deckchair arrangement of adjustment... ;) ergonomics at play
-
I think only the later Albi's D.v's & D.Va's had the adjustment Bo mentioned. before that the mounts ran side to side, whether there was holes to allow the seat or rails to be moved I don't know.
There seem to have been. Check the photos of Koloman's D.II & D.III repros; the fore/aft seat rails have multiple holes so it seems the seats could be at least crudely adjusted in that aspect. One really useful photo is on this page (http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/replica-aircraft/35610-albatros-d-ii-d-iii-news-47.html) of the long "D.II D.III News" Areodrome thread. Somewhere in one of the Datafiles there is also a period drawing IIRC.
-
Nice spot Bo.
Of course anyone thinking of building a DIII should save these pics as this is how a DIII should look not as Roden, Eduard and even Windsock publications show the cockpit layout. Koloman is a stickler for detail so I think it must be so. :) It was changed with the DIII to suit the new lower wing layout and it's single spar as opposed to the DI & DII's twin spar wing.
But getting back on track.
Still though I'd hate to think my parachute was stuffed behind my seat, kind of a recipe for disaster IMHO. I wonder if theres some mix up between balloon observers parachute arrangements and aircraft over time.
Keith.
-
I've just found a pic in a book of a D.VII pilot being readied for flight by his attendant, He's having his chute harness fitted and its clearly attached to a seat cushion shaped bag under the attendants arm.
The books Fokker aircraft of world war one by Paul Leaman. Its the top right pic on page 131and is credited to Cross & Cockade International
Keith
-
It's yet another big learning curve for me. Thanks Bo and Keith.
I love the imagery of the Roland 'deckchair' arrangement. The Fokker tube on tube arrangement sort of makes sense if I've understood it correctly. I'll have to scour my sources and see what the British manufacturers did.
I don't recall seeing a model in which the seat and internal controls have been adjusted to suit a particular pilot known to have been very tall or very short. It would be an interesting challenge.
Best wishes
Nigel
-
I'm I late or what? :-\
You guys already said enough, so i just leave you with a couple of pics (they were missing weren't they? ;D).
Pilot getting ready
(http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/TheZabu/parachute_alb.jpg)
Bailing out
(http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/TheZabu/HandTool.jpg)
I guess that the Heinecke parachute started as a backpack (prototype) but then evolved to a seat cushion style.
Cheers
-
That's great thanks Zabu.
Best wishes
Nigel
-
Hello All
Last night I was reading one of my favourite books, The Red Baron's Last Flight by Norman Franks and Alan Bennett (1997 edition, Grub Street, London).
On page 62 it notes that on that fateful flight Richthofen was wearing a Heinecke parachute harness. Franks and Bennett also quote from Signals Sergeant Norman Symes, who may have been the second soldier to reach the crashed Triplane. In 1982, Symes told the Sydney Sunday Post ... Beside the dead man in the cockpit lay a loosely bundled parachute. I gathered it up and ran to HQ...
I'm not quite sure what to make of the loosely bundled parachute. How could it be in that state and where had it been stored prior to the crash?
Best wishes
Nigel