forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => What's New => Topic started by: cgandiaga on April 17, 2013, 02:55:00 AM
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And I'm considering some "historical blashphemy".. I want to do the Ernst Udet variant and add the "Du Doch Nicht" to the Tailplane. Would I be tempting the modeling gods? Please help a modest pilgrim..
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If you can hold on for a couple of months or so I'm going to provide markings for (some of) Udet's other non-BMW D.VIIs - including a rendering of "Du doch nicht!"and one or two others from Jasta 4.
Rowan
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If you can hold on, do so, cos Rowans decals are well worth the wait.
Cheers
Pete.
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If you can hold on for a couple of months or so I'm going to provide markings for (some of) Udet's other non-BMW D.VIIs - including a rendering of "Du doch nicht!"and one or two others from Jasta 4.
Rowan
Sounds like a cracking idea. How will I know when they're ready?
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Isn't the overall agreement that DDN was of OAW'S manufacture? That would mean using the DVIIF kit should be avoided, shouldn't it?
Stefan
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Isn't the overall agreement that DDN was of OAW'S manufacture? That would mean using the DVIIF kit should be avoided, shouldn't it?
Stefan
Oh bollocks.. will just have to buy another DVII at some point and have both of Udet's mounts...
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I love it - This debate on his markings is always fascinating - and a new Rowan sheet on the horizon is always a good thing!!
Steve
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If you can hold on, do so, cos Rowans decals are well worth the wait.
Cheers
Pete.
I second that!
Cheers,
Bud
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If you decide not to wait - there is a decalsheet available for one Udet's DVIIs, from Lifelike.
Available at Hannants http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/LL32016
(and they propose to use the DVIIF kit ;) )
Stefan
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If you decide not to wait - there is a decalsheet available for one Udet's DVIIs, from Lifelike.
Available at Hannants http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/LL32016
(and they propose to use the DVIIF kit ;) )
Stefan
I think you missed my point. The WNW kit already has the Udet variant, but not "Du Doch Nicht!"..
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Looking forward to seeing your "Du Doch Nicht" when you get your decals my friend.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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The article in Windsock will help.
‘Udet’s Fokker D.VII Fighters’ by Dan-San Abbott, Windsock Vol.4, Spring 1989. Oblt. Ernst Udet's "Du doch nicht!!" was a Fokker Co. built D.VII.
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The article in Windsock will help.
‘Udet’s Fokker D.VII Fighters’ by Dan-San Abbott, Windsock Vol.4, Spring 1989. Oblt. Ernst Udet's "Du doch nicht!!" was a Fokker Co. built D.VII.
My italics and emphasis. Just a note of caution on making such a clear statement of "fact".......... It aint necessarily so, as the song goes.
For everyone's peace of mind, and to avoid any speculation, I am using the article in the Windsock Fokker anthology vol.2 "The Importance of being Erni's" by Dave Roberts as my principle reference for these markings and this article speculates that "Du doch..." was probably OAW built. In the absence of any clear and unequivocal evidence to the contrary, that is the information I will run with. I know that there is a natural tendency to seek certainties when discussing WWI markings but we all know (or at least should know) that certainty is a rare commodity in this area - despite what many past commentators would have you believe.
Take Dan-San's statements on exact colour references, quoting the Methuen book; many of these stemmed from the time when he thought that he had discovered a kind of "Rosetta Stone" for translating black and white photograph grey-scales into colour, which was later shown to be totally erroneous, though, as far as I know, he never officially "recanted". Nonetheless the observations went into print or remain echoing in cyberspace through the Aerodrome archives and are often repeated just as strongly and with little in the way of supporting evidence by one or two others. Here let me offer a heart-felt caveat: I am not, repeat NOT saying that all that Dan-San wrote was dross, far from it as he contributed much to our current understanding and was a tireless researcher. I would just say that sometimes his enthusiastic search for answers led him to draw conclusions which owed slightly more to wishful thinking than to dispassionate examination of the facts.
I am very cautious in my descriptions of matters where no proof absolute exists, as is anyone else who wants to keep ego and mistaken dogma out of the discussion. In observing the Wingnut Wings approach to markings I note that they seem to mainly go for ones which are reasonably well documented and have a higher than average chance of being "right" whereas I sniff around more on the margins and produce others which are, quite often, more speculative - in some cases ultra speculative but I will always tell you what the speculation is!! It's also worth saying that I have neither the WNW massive photo archive nor try as I might!, do I have Richard Alexander's superlative analytical and observational skills when interpreting photographs. Udet's D.VIIs are a case in point; D.VIIF 4253/18 is pretty well photographed and the serial is positively known, whereas the others which I am tackling have relatively sketchy records.
To my mind there is no better example of the WWI marking sleuth's art than Dave Robert's careful and amusing article in the second Anthology volume - indeed the whole three-volume oeuvre is highly recommended, as is Ray Rimell's exemplary approach to the colours and markings issue.
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I find this discussion interesting, I had my Pfalz DXII on display at the monthly meeting of the Twin cities Aero Historians. I used a marking off the PHEON sheet for the DXII and I referenced the Windsock DataFile. I was amazed at the number of people that questioned the validity of the light blue. Naturally, I "cheated" and used what I had on the bench, which was a little more aqua than light blue, but going on the notion that who knows what color it really is and the other notion: "It's my model"!
I have several Pheon Sheets with projects in mind and appreciate Rowan's approach to his decals in that he offers that the color is speculative. I think it makes for a more interesting model and discussion. As long as people don't get dogmatic about it, it is fun to see the responses that the topic elicits.
I am glad to see Rowan's response to the Du Doch Nicht and look forward to it's release at which time, I will purchase one.
Best
Mark
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Well written Rowan. Interpreting century old film and photographs is all speculation to my way of thinking. Deductions can be made based on surviving examples of the real thing but there are always exceptions. Luftwaffe colours 30 years later than our current discussion are a hornets nest and the "benefit" of colour film is available for analyzing that period.
Steve
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An interesting and quite educational discussion but.... at the end of the day WNW include the *slogan* on their decal sheet so kind of ..welll yes.
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I have to admit I'm tempted to just say "F it" and put it on the tailplane. It looks cool, and it's not like I'll be entering any contests soon..
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For DDN there are a number of choices I see based on all the articles and the extremely lengthy discussion posts/arguments on another site:
-Fokker Built or OAW (I lean to believing it was Fok built)
-Red vs. Black stripes on top wing (I lean to the red)
-All red fuselage vs. black nose, red fuse (I lean to the all red)
-Turtle-deck behind cockpit, red, vs. white, vs. white stripes (I lean to red again)
I built a 1/72nd scale of DDN many years ago with the old Blue Rider decal sheet and the ancient Revell kit - it turned out fantastic - probably my favorite build that I was the most happy with the result so and I am building a WNW Fokker as DDN
To add to this though - it is your model and I would agree that the slogan on the tail is cool - and frankly there is no proof Udet didnt add it to his DVIIF after the pics were taken of it :)
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‘Udet’s Fokker D.VII Fighters’ by Dan-San Abbott, Windsock Vol.4, Spring 1989. Oblt. Ernst Udet's "Du doch nicht!!" was a Fokker Co. built D.VII.
My italics and emphasis. Just a note of caution on making such a clear statement of "fact".......... It aint necessarily so, as the song goes.
For everyone's peace of mind, and to avoid any speculation, I am using the article in the Windsock Fokker anthology vol.2 "The Importance of being Erni's" by Dave Roberts as my principle reference for these markings and this article speculates that "Du doch..." was probably OAW built. . .
Except Udet gave Wanamaker a photo of his Fok. D.VII when he shot him down 2 July 1918. An Early Fokker built D.VII. Udet lost DDN on 29 June 1918. He rec'd it on about 13 June 1918 took photos of it with cowlings on after it was marked. After Udet shot Wanamaker down he visited him and they began an a friendship that lasted even after the war. It was at that visit Udet gave him the photo. At least according to Wanamaker. The photo is not the best quality but has the Fokker Co. hallmarks.
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To my mind there is no better example of the WWI marking sleuth's art than Dave Robert's careful and amusing article in the second Anthology volume - indeed the whole three-volume oeuvre is highly recommended, as is Ray Rimell's exemplary approach to the colours and markings issue.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
Stefan
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‘Udet’s Fokker D.VII Fighters’ by Dan-San Abbott, Windsock Vol.4, Spring 1989. Oblt. Ernst Udet's "Du doch nicht!!" was a Fokker Co. built D.VII.
My italics and emphasis. Just a note of caution on making such a clear statement of "fact".......... It aint necessarily so, as the song goes.
For everyone's peace of mind, and to avoid any speculation, I am using the article in the Windsock Fokker anthology vol.2 "The Importance of being Erni's" by Dave Roberts as my principle reference for these markings and this article speculates that "Du doch..." was probably OAW built. . .
Except Udet gave Wanamaker a photo of his Fok. D.VII when he shot him down 2 July 1918. An Early Fokker built D.VII. Udet lost DDN on 29 June 1918. He rec'd it on about 13 June 1918 took photos of it with cowlings on after it was marked. After Udet shot Wanamaker down he visited him and they began an a friendship that lasted even after the war. It was at that visit Udet gave him the photo. At least according to Wanamaker. The photo is not the best quality but has the Fokker Co. hallmarks.
BoRoss, can I ask that if you have definite information you post it? You are so far offering northing that is more than your opinion based on what could be published info, or it could be anecdotal - you offer no clue. Do you see the problem? If you have this photo or can say where it can be seen, if it is published, then can you tell us where? In addition what are the "Fokker Co. hallmarks" seen in the photograph?
Let us see this photograph and its provenance and we can then draw our own conclusions. As far as I can tell from what you've written so far it could be the Du Doch machine or not, the date it was given to the downed pilot could be as you state it might be, or not (you imply that there may be some doubt "At least according to Wanamaker" ). I know that this might sound critical and I have no wish to be unfriendly but so far you aren't offering anything except your opinion based on something nobody else can form a judgement on.
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Actually it has been offered over on the areodrome. I note you are not a member there. So you probably won't be able to see the posted image. Get with Greg VanWyngarden I am sure he has a copy of the image. By the way I don't take you as unfriendly but to be concise, Mr. Robert has known to make a few mistakes in his Anthology series especially when it came to designations. One note further, the evidence of Wanamaker & Udet's meeting(s) is readily available. Wanamaker even though seriously wounded signed the rudder fabric from his Nieuport 28 for Udet. Here is some evidence for you.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=719 (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=719)
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Actually it has been offered over on the areodrome. I note you are not a member there. So you probably won't be able to see the posted image. Get with Greg VanWyngarden I am sure he has a copy of the image. By the way I don't take you as unfriendly but to be concise, Mr. Robert has known to make a few mistakes in his Anthology series especially when it came to designations. One note further, the evidence of Wanamaker & Udet's meeting(s) is readily available. Wanamaker even though seriously wounded signed the rudder fabric from his Nieuport 28 for Udet. Here is some evidence for you.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=719 (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=719)
I am a member at the Drome. I did a quick search but couldn't find the photo. Are you speaking of the infamous photo on Udets Wall or another? If you could post a link I would like to read the thread. Thanks in advance! I am open to either interpretation at this point. I once felt sure it would be an early Fokker built aircraft but now....
RAGIII