forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: 2996 Victor on November 18, 2025, 09:12:59 PM
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Here's another subject that's piqued my interest!
As far as I can ascertain from web searches, Ltn Jacobs seems to have had three Triplanes at the same time, all painted black over-all, but with variations in markings.
450/17 seems to have been his "favourite" and was adorned with his personal motif, described as either a horned devil (Jack Nicholson?) or the God of the North Winds;
470/17 I've seen referred to as his "second choice", which did not carry his personal motif; and
A third triplane whose serial I haven't seen quoted, but which appears to have had white-only crosses rather than black outlined with white.
Are there any "definitive" photographs of Josef Jacobs' favourite triplane which clearly show his personal motif? I ask because I've seen many and various renditions of it both in profiles and in decal sets. I would presume Aviattic's rendition would be a reasonable guess, link https://www.aviattic.com/webshop/1-48-scale/decals-and-upgrades/1-48-fokker-f-i-dr-i-eduard-kit/ (https://www.aviattic.com/webshop/1-48-scale/decals-and-upgrades/1-48-fokker-f-i-dr-i-eduard-kit/), but what about Peddinghaus, link https://www.peddinghaus-decals.de/peddinghaus-decals-1-48-3987-fokker-dr-i-gott-des-nordwindes-josef-jacobs-martincodurt-france-september-1918.html (https://www.peddinghaus-decals.de/peddinghaus-decals-1-48-3987-fokker-dr-i-gott-des-nordwindes-josef-jacobs-martincodurt-france-september-1918.html)? Dragon issued their Knights of the Sky series Dr.I in his scheme as well, link https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186346261672?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20250528154913%26meid%3Da217e44b6cb846388a2e3b9587b26d9b%26pid%3D102805%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D186346261672%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4375194%26algv%3DPersonalizedTopicsV2WithPCatSup_BP%26brand%3DDragon&_trksid=p4375194.c102805.m162920 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186346261672?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20250528154913%26meid%3Da217e44b6cb846388a2e3b9587b26d9b%26pid%3D102805%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D186346261672%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4375194%26algv%3DPersonalizedTopicsV2WithPCatSup_BP%26brand%3DDragon&_trksid=p4375194.c102805.m162920). I'd like to know which rendition is correct, or at least closest, in outline - I realise the colours will be conjectural, unless Josef himself described it in detail?
And what about that third triplane with the white crosses? I've seen it in model form, but are there any photos of the real thing?
Many thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Mark
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Best info for you is included in 'The Blue Max Airmen, vol 20 Jacobs and Sachsenberg' from Aeronaut Books
Included are 10 photos of 450 & 470 and the one picture of the third triplane in a line up of Jasta 7 aircraft, sitting alongside 470. It is a blurry picture and a blow up is attached as well as other blow-ups, but this is the only photo evidence known at the moment, I believe. There are 3 more pics of unidentified Triplanes behind Jacobs in group pictures which may or not be his.
Also included are large colour profiles of all three black triplanes.
HTH
Sandy
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Both Windsock 'specials' have the same photo's I believe.
The more recent one 'Fokker Dr1 Jagdstaffeln' has 9 photos relating to Jacobs aircraft including the well known line up photo and includes a couple of images that I wasn't aware of. One showing him in front of a factory finish aircraft which may have been one of the well known ones before it was repainted. A second photo shows him in front of (probably 470/17) with the two lower wings at least still showing their blue under surfaces which would be different. ;) Another photo shows his triplane with a standard Oberursel rather than the Clerget with allied style prop.
Apparently Jacobs gave a coloured drawing to Neal O'Connor in 1974 depicting the arrangement of colors although at other times he gave slightly conflicting descriptions so nothing is definitive (as with so many schemes) :)
Richard (of Aviattic) is a very thorough individual so unless you are so inclined I'd use his interpretation of colours in the graphic myself.
Paul
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Just look at the photos on this page and you will see why you should buy the Aviattic version...... ;)
https://www.aviattic.com/webshop/1-32-scale/decals-and-upgrades/1-32-fokker-f-i-dr-i-meng-kit/
(I may be biased ;))
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Best info for you is included in 'The Blue Max Airmen, vol 20 Jacobs and Sachsenberg' from Aeronaut Books
Included are 10 photos of 450 & 470 and the one picture of the third triplane in a line up of Jasta 7 aircraft, sitting alongside 470. It is a blurry picture and a blow up is attached as well as other blow-ups, but this is the only photo evidence known at the moment, I believe. There are 3 more pics of unidentified Triplanes behind Jacobs in group pictures which may or not be his.
Also included are large colour profiles of all three black triplanes.
HTH
Sandy
Many thanks for this, Sandy - I wasn't aware of the Aeronaut series of books but Google came to my aid in finding them (my wallet is already rebelling!) and I'll get that volume ordered asap! I dare say more may follow.....
Cheers,
Mark
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Both Windsock 'specials' have the same photo's I believe.
The more recent one 'Fokker Dr1 Jagdstaffeln' has 9 photos relating to Jacobs aircraft including the well known line up photo and includes a couple of images that I wasn't aware of. One showing him in front of a factory finish aircraft which may have been one of the well known ones before it was repainted. A second photo shows him in front of (probably 470/17) with the two lower wings at least still showing their blue under surfaces which would be different. ;) Another photo shows his triplane with a standard Oberursel rather than the Clerget with allied style prop.
Apparently Jacobs gave a coloured drawing to Neal O'Connor in 1974 depicting the arrangement of colors although at other times he gave slightly conflicting descriptions so nothing is definitive (as with so many schemes) :)
Richard (of Aviattic) is a very thorough individual so unless you are so inclined I'd use his interpretation of colours in the graphic myself.
Paul
Hi Paul and many thanks for your reply! I could do with replacing some of the Windsock books that I used to have, and Fokker Dr.I Jagdstaffeln sounds like a good addition to have. The blue undersurfaces would certainly make for an unusual rendition of 470/17, and the variation in engines and props all adds interest! I'd heard mention that Jacobs had described the marking to a historian, but not who, so that's interesting as well.
Cheers,
Mark
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Just look at the photos on this page and you will see why you should buy the Aviattic version...... ;)
https://www.aviattic.com/webshop/1-32-scale/decals-and-upgrades/1-32-fokker-f-i-dr-i-meng-kit/
(I may be biased ;))
Many thanks for this, Nigel, I'd spotted the decal set on Aviattic's 1/48 page, but hadn't seen those photographs. I'm seriously considering getting that decal set (along with their Flugzeugstoffe for my planned D.VIIs), and so once again my wallet is protesting!
Cheers,
Mark
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Best info for you is included in 'The Blue Max Airmen, vol 20 Jacobs and Sachsenberg' from Aeronaut Books
Included are 10 photos of 450 & 470 and the one picture of the third triplane in a line up of Jasta 7 aircraft, sitting alongside 470. It is a blurry picture and a blow up is attached as well as other blow-ups, but this is the only photo evidence known at the moment, I believe. There are 3 more pics of unidentified Triplanes behind Jacobs in group pictures which may or not be his.
Also included are large colour profiles of all three black triplanes.
HTH
Sandy
Many thanks for this, Sandy - I wasn't aware of the Aeronaut series of books but Google came to my aid in finding them (my wallet is already rebelling!) and I'll get that volume ordered asap! I dare say more may follow.....
Cheers,
Mark
Not sure where you are Mark, but in the UK, Amazon had mostly the best prices for this series of books.
Cheers
S
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Best info for you is included in 'The Blue Max Airmen, vol 20 Jacobs and Sachsenberg' from Aeronaut Books
Included are 10 photos of 450 & 470 and the one picture of the third triplane in a line up of Jasta 7 aircraft, sitting alongside 470. It is a blurry picture and a blow up is attached as well as other blow-ups, but this is the only photo evidence known at the moment, I believe. There are 3 more pics of unidentified Triplanes behind Jacobs in group pictures which may or not be his.
Also included are large colour profiles of all three black triplanes.
HTH
Sandy
Many thanks for this, Sandy - I wasn't aware of the Aeronaut series of books but Google came to my aid in finding them (my wallet is already rebelling!) and I'll get that volume ordered asap! I dare say more may follow.....
Cheers,
Mark
Not sure where you are Mark, but in the UK, Amazon had mostly the best prices for this series of books.
Cheers
S
Hi Sandy,
I'm in the UK (Derbyshire), and I've been checking out the offers on Amazon - Volume 20 has been ordered and is arriving Sunday! I've got a particular interest in balloon busters at the moment, so I've also ordered Volume 22 for Friedrich R?th. I expect others will follow..... I really must get some new bookcases!
Many thanks once again for the pointers - greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Mark
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Stephen Lawson recently posted several photos on his Facebook page, WWI-in-plastic, of 450/17 before it received its black paint job. This doesn't answer the questions brought up about the black paint job but the photos are interesting to see. He has lots of other good information and photos there as well.
https://www.facebook.com/WWIinPlastic
Eduard in there newer 1/72 Fokker Dr.I kit has a version for Jacob's 450/17 which has slightly different "devils" on each side.
https://eduard-cdn.oxyshop.cloud/out/media/7039.pdf
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Stephen Lawson recently posted several photos on his Facebook page, WWI-in-plastic, of 450/17 before it received its black paint job. This doesn't answer the questions brought up about the black paint job but the photos are interesting to see. He has lots of other good information and photos there as well.
https://www.facebook.com/WWIinPlastic
Eduard in there newer 1/72 Fokker Dr.I kit has a version for Jacob's 450/17 which has slightly different "devils" on each side.
https://eduard-cdn.oxyshop.cloud/out/media/7039.pdf
Many thanks for the links - both very interesting. I've not heard mention of differences in the port and starboard "devils" elsewhere (may well have missed it!) which adds an extra bit of interest as well.
Cheers,
Mark
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Many thanks for the links - both very interesting. I've not heard mention of differences in the port and starboard "devils" elsewhere (may well have missed it!) which adds an extra bit of interest as well.
I believe Eduard had an article about the differences in one of their Eduard Info monthly newsletters years ago when they released the kit. From what I remember about the article, someone had a post-war discussion with Jacobs about 450/17, and he said the devils were different. There was a picture or painting of the devil in his room and he said the left side devil was close to that one. I could be wrong on these details. If I could find which newsletter had the article, I'll let you know.
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Found the newsletter. Hear is the article.
https://info.eduard.com/en/11-2023-1/page-38
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Many thanks for the links - both very interesting. I've not heard mention of differences in the port and starboard "devils" elsewhere (may well have missed it!) which adds an extra bit of interest as well.
I believe Eduard had an article about the differences in one of their Eduard Info monthly newsletters years ago when they released the kit. From what I remember about the article, someone had a post-war discussion with Jacobs about 450/17, and he said the devils were different. There was a picture or painting of the devil in his room and he said the left side devil was close to that one. I could be wrong on these details. If I could find which newsletter had the article, I'll let you know.
Found the newsletter. Hear is the article.
https://info.eduard.com/en/11-2023-1/page-38
Many thanks for the link - that's very interesting and useful info! I've downloaded that page to add to my "library".
Cheers,
Mark
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Stephen Lawson recently posted several photos on his Facebook page, WWI-in-plastic, of 450/17 before it received its black paint job. This doesn't answer the questions brought up about the black paint job but the photos are interesting to see. He has lots of other good information and photos there as well.
https://www.facebook.com/WWIinPlastic
You Rang. . .
(https://scontent-den2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/608075863_10232090620872973_7108275113441359037_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=u4CHQI20NMAQ7kNvwE5nKES&_nc_oc=AdnumssnMFM4qX6Z2htMsoF68bhlyyzYx3ke6zafykc_7be2vdWZtGjkrtvu3K2XuZxlhLut3bZ63zTsqMgTIVFD&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-den2-1.xx&_nc_gid=wMxvMC7j0Bfv6U8LfwCryw&oh=00_AfpZVutxV7u-mC3HO3opzVhZYHPJfBOPk5aDs7wZWMPRPw&oe=695FDE06)
Eduard in there newer 1/72 Fokker Dr.I kit has a version for Jacob's 450/17 which has slightly different "devils" on each side.
https://eduard-cdn.oxyshop.cloud/out/media/7039.pdf
Eduard art work leaves alot to be desired.
(https://scontent-den2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/504267487_1296697395794643_1636390499044080868_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=f727a1&_nc_ohc=XnS0l7SW4U4Q7kNvwE99Wl5&_nc_oc=AdnNyrh-qNPBcCRe4fllAApVO4QiNLzwQY0BIRPi55kyoILzzCFu3HbvOJ2sISILleTdnRUBmRoAf_SLMCruRxQG&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-den2-1.xx&_nc_gid=usd9gS3spKh94hMCT8sfrg&oh=00_AfrFybxRA2ZGI-L5FM77ovI0EC3Tb6w0of7uqKJsaeedVA&oe=695FF60B)
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@RedLeader1 many thanks for your post - that's very interesting, and the contrast between Jacobs' sketch and Eduard's "interpretation" is quite significant. I've read somewhere that the actual shape of the flame was different on each side - do you have any info on that?
Cheers,
Mark
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Bruno Schm?ling's book Jasta Colors Vol 1, pages 60-66 deals a good bit with 450/17. As with much of Schm?ling's works, his information is based on his interviews with the actual pilots (in this case,Jacobs). He presents a color illustration of the Teufelskopf that he worked on in conjunction with Jacobs.
Warren Q
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Bruno Schm?ling's book Jasta Colors Vol 1, pages 60-66 deals a good bit with 450/17. As with much of Schm?ling's works, his information is based on his interviews with the actual pilots (in this case,Jacobs). He presents a color illustration of the Teufelskopf that he worked on in conjunction with Jacobs.
Warren Q
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That's brilliant, Warren, thank you - the Jasta Colors books are definitely going on my shopping list now! Incidentally, do you know if either volume covers Jasta 43?
Many thanks!
Mark
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Speaking of only the Jasta Colors series:
Vol 1 includes the Fokker D.VII lineup photo and lists Josef Raesch as being one of a large number of personnel interviewed for this book, but that's all my skimming has noted regarding Jasta 43. Also regarding Vol 1, there is further info on Jacobs on pages 76-78, including a profile of 470/17. At the end of the book is a photo of the painting Jacobs commissioned in 1919 for his home, which includes the Devil's Head Dr.1.
Vol 2 covers only 1914 through early 1917, and so pre-dates the formation of Jasta 43.
Warren Q
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Speaking of only the Jasta Colors series:
Vol 1 includes the Fokker D.VII lineup photo and lists Josef Raesch as being one of a large number of personnel interviewed for this book, but that's all my skimming has noted regarding Jasta 43. Also regarding Vol 1, there is further info on Jacobs on pages 76-78, including a profile of 470/17. At the end of the book is a photo of the painting Jacobs commissioned in 1919 for his home, which includes the Devil's Head Dr.1.
Vol 2 covers only 1914 through early 1917, and so pre-dates the formation of Jasta 43.
Warren Q
Thanks again, Warren, that's very helpful - I'll definitely be buying these soon and hopefully there'll be a Vol.3 along at some point!
Cheers,
Mark
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Greetings all. Warren W. is right that B. Schmaeling has much written on Jacobs. He did get to interview him late in Jacobs life. He also acquired many copies of photo images that I have as well. I used the "war diary" and helped translate a portion of it to English text and get all of it published. There is another fellow in Germany I must refer to as a "private owner" that demands anonymity. As to the curl or shape of the flame we must rely on photos available in the public domain.