forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: MG on December 28, 2024, 06:24:15 AM
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Good evening,
first of all happy holidays and happy 2025,
since in the future I would like to make an Albatros D.III (OAW) I would like to study these photos and, through a logical path of analysis and suppositions, propose some hypotheses on the colors. Jasta 31 - German expeditionary force for the Caporetto offensive. The plane was probably photographed in Slovenia in Auritz (Bled) in the period 20 September - 2 November 1917.
From the shadows of the people it is clear that it is in full light. The right half-wing clearly shows the presence of only two colors, the dark color, lilac/violet or dark green connects a little with the tail rudder, the light color could be light green or light lilac. The rectangles at the tail are most likely white, the spaces between one rectangle and the other appear faded, in my opinion they are the result of paint being removed with sandpaper. The devil with horns, tongue and beard could be red as black, I lean towards red. The nose cone that encloses the propeller seems dark, perhaps in the same color as the rudder. The upper wing is an enigma, being an almost horizontal plane it reflects all the light preventing the camouflage from being detected. On the vertical tail plane the serial number is missing further complicating the investigation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jx4Fk1t/Jasta-31-Alb-DIII-OAW.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMtWzQYk/BOLDT-2.png)
Here are some hypothetical reconstructions that I have produced in the hope of getting as close to reality as possible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvjz62sC/Screenshot-2024-12-27-alle-20-01-42.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvxdmP9D/Screenshot-2024-12-27-alle-20-03-04.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmLNrRft/Screenshot-2024-12-27-alle-20-09-07.png)
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Hello,
that is an interesting investigation you are doing. I have a little annotation: I do not think the painting on the side of the airplane is a devil. I think this is a <<Krampus>>, a figure that accompanies St. Nikolaus on December 6 in Austrian customs. While St. Nikolaus gives sweets to good kids, the bad ones are punished by the Krampus. Jasta 31, in spite of being a Prussian Jasta, should have heard of this tradition while being transferred to the Austrian front in 1917.
The Krampus is rarely depicted in red colors, but brown or black. See here an Austrian postcard from the year 1900:
https://www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/Krampus
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Interesting, possible option. In fact I found that it is part of the tradition also in Bavaria and Styria.
Thanks
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Work in progress
(https://i.postimg.cc/15Y4MRLR/KRAMPUS.png)
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Great detective work MG and Borsos; I tend to agree with the latter interpretation of the black Krampus and lilac tail. I also think that the spinner should be a dark colour, possibly also black?
One other thing that many folks forget about the earlier Albatros models; the fillet panels in front of the leading edge of the wing and behind the trailing edge of the wing were wood, not metal. They should be the same wooden colour as the surrounding wooden panels. The close up of the cockpit area shows this well; look at the contrast between the small metal brackets on the fuselage and the trailing edge fairing. For some reason this misconception of those panels being metal has persisted.
Cheers!
BC
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3w4W0MRS/KRAMPUS.png)
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Perfect! :)
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Looks very plausible to me, the krampus looks much better. Great scheme!
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3w4W0MRS/KRAMPUS.png)
Very nice! Yes, the Krampus is very widely known in the Alpine region, also in the area of todays Slovenia where then the Isonzo battles took place.
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Great scheme! Have never seen this Albatros before - is there a good source for information and photos of the German units fighting in Italy? Also agree with the black Krampus, I remember my Mom telling me that the adult who played Krampus when she was a little girl wore black horns! She wondered why St. Nikolas wore the same shoes as her father! This would have been in Wien in the 30s.
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I also like the black krampus best.
as a side note, try Googling ?vipiteno krampus? and have a look at the pictures. It is not the only reppresentation of kramuses you can find, of course, but it is from a region Italy gained from Austria after ww1 and the tradition is still alive today.
As you can see the wear black masks over red robes.... 8) sooooo.... still undecided???
ciao
edo
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Thanks for all your answers.
I remain faithful to the black color as the most probable. In the problematic research of the colors of the WW1 airplanes we are all perfectly aware that certainties do not exist except in very rare cases, so it is necessary through research of reliable sources, logic, analysis, hypothesis etc., to reach an acceptable compromise.
In my case the problem is the tail rudder and the distribution of the colors on the wings.
That the colors are purple/lilac and light green is very probable (it is always necessary to take into account that the effect of the colors on the canvas and on the wood are different). However the vertical tail plane cannot be black given the disparity with the cross. What disconcerts me a little is that some exclude the presence in the Albatros D.III of the two colors lilac/purple and light green and even the lozenges, while others say the exact opposite. I have been researching the appearance of the airplanes of all the contenders who crossed the skies of the Italian front for years and I tend to give credit to the latter. In general I love a little of all history and I like to approach its various themes objectively and without prejudice, absolutely without the presumption of possessing the truth.
All aimed at building 1/48 scale models!!!! :D :D :D
Ciao :)
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I have had nothing to add to this thread*, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it.
Warren
*Several of my friends and I have tried to get some folks started on Krampus here in the U.S., but no takers unfortunately. ;) ;)
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Great scheme! Have never seen this Albatros before - is there a good source for information and photos of the German units fighting in Italy? Also agree with the black Krampus, I remember my Mom telling me that the adult who played Krampus when she was a little girl wore black horns! She wondered why St. Nikolas wore the same shoes as her father! This would have been in Wien in the 30s.
Yes there is information and photos
The following German units reached the Italian front in late 1917:
fighter units: 1, 31, 39
reconnaissance units: Flieger-Abteilung 204, 219, 232
bombing units: kampfgeschwader 4
artillery observation units: Flieger-Abteilung 2, 14 and 17
Fighter units (Albatros D.III/D.V), the bases were:
JASTA 1
Veldes September 1917 - 2 November 1917
Campoformido 3 November 1917 - 10 November 1917
Aviano 11 November 1917 - 15 November 1917
Possanerlo 16 November 1917 - 22 December 1917
San Fior 23 December 1917 - 13 March 1918
JASTA 31
Audritz 20 September - 2 November 1917
Udine 3 - 11 November 1917
Aviano 15 - 19 November 1917
San Giacomo 19 November 1917 - 2 January 1918
San Fior 3 January - 13 March 1918
JASTA 39
Lees 1 October - 31 October 1917
Campoformido. 31 October - 13 November 1917
San Giacomo. 13 November - 16 November 1917
Roveredo in Piano (La Comina) 16 November - 18 November 1917
Mareno in Piave (Cervada) 18 November - 23 December 1917
San Fior 23 December 1917 - 13 March 1918
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Please note the color & layout of the wings should be referenced to OAW (Schneidemuhl) built airframes not Johannistahl built.
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Please note the color & layout of the wings should be referenced to OAW (Schneidemuhl) built airframes not Johannistahl built.
Yes, of course.
The problem is that there are many photos and color representations of Albatros D.III Johannistahl, but not of OAW, especially from the period September 1917-March 1918 in Italy. It seems that there was no standard method for applying camouflage colors but the application was left to the discretion of the painter, or the guidelines for applying the colors changed frequently, as is evident in the various camouflages of the Albatros D.V and D.Va.
The camouflage I proposed (inspired by a drawing in the book "J.Herris - Albatros Aircraft of WWI. Volume 4: Fighters-Centennial Perspective") is the result of reasoning through the observation of the horizontal tail plane, light color at the beginning with a clear horizontal separation from the dark color behind. The lower right wing clearly has two different colors, one light and one dark. Apparently there was also a camouflage with only two tones of green, light and dark, but I discarded it because in reality the two-tone camouflage (dark green and light green) was present on the Albatros D.III models of late production by Johannistahl and on the Albatros D.V models of early production.
If anyone has something better to suggest, they are welcome.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YC31BfQb/Albatros-D-III-green-dark-light.png)
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Yes, of course. The problem is that there are many photos and color representations of Albatros D.III Johannistahl, but not of OAW, especially from the period September 1917-March 1918 in Italy. It seems that there was no standard method for applying camouflage colors but the application was left to the discretion of the painter, or the guidelines for applying the colors changed frequently, as is evident in the various camouflages of the Albatros D.V and D.Va. . . The lower right wing clearly has two different colors, one light and one dark. Apparently there was also a camouflage with only two tones of green, light and dark, but I discarded it because in reality the two-tone camouflage (dark green and light green) was present on the Albatros D.III models of late production by Johannistahl and on the Albatros D.V models of early production. . .
I disagree. There are many photos of the Alb. D.III (OAW) types and even some fabric samples. I suggest for your further viewing to look at "Aviattic" web site. Mr. Andrews has some very good references and even has whole camouflage layouts in his archive, Italian expert Vittorio Valentino has many images of the Alb. D.III (OAW) in Italy from the 4 German Jastas in the region.
Both of the Albatros Werke companies practice of camouflage was an alternation in most cases of every 50 or so machines between the painted two toned shading and the 5 colour Lozenge printed camouflage. This is the break down, generally speaking for the Albatros D.III (OAW) as noted by Mr. Dan-San Abbott.
D.1650 - 1849/17, two colour painted.
D.2362 - 2424/17, five colour printed.
D.2425 - 2599/17, two colour painted.
D.2600 - 2661/17, five colour printed.
D.3156 - 3199/17, two colour painted.
D.3200 - 3255/17, five colour printed.
D.5022 - 5071/17, two colour painted.
D.5072 - 5161/17, five colour printed.
https://www.aviattic.co.uk/132-albatros-dv-and-dva.html (https://www.aviattic.co.uk/132-albatros-dv-and-dva.html)
https://www.facebook.com/vittorio.valentino.12327 (https://www.facebook.com/vittorio.valentino.12327)
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Thanks for the valuable information!! :) :)
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Just out of curiosity, is it possible the horns of the Krampus figure were red with a black head. I ask because of the difference in tone in the second photo.
Brian James Riedel
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I just noticed this thread, and as it is on a subject I have great interest in, I thought I might chime in....Far be it from me to offer an opinion at odds with those of more expertise than my amateurish view, but I recall an interchange between Dan San
and Ronny of WNW re: color interpretation some 20+ years back in the Aerodrome. He noted that in monochromatic film the
green was always dark, as were red and yellow. It turns out that his advice was ignored and the green and mauve/lilac colors
we're reversed in WNW's illustrations. That said, I believe the rudder color of the photo in question could be green, but I posit that as the wheel covers have a similar shade, both might be red. As for the camouflage pattern, OAW tended to alternate the green and lilac on the wings, like the D.V, unlike the other Johann. D.IIIs, which tended, so not an absolute, to have the colors on both wings to match. I believe the upper wing extremities to be green, but due to reflection, it isn't obvious. Re: Krampus,
his horns might be a yellow or ochre, in contrast to what we expect to be a red tongue.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just another who stares at the pictures....
Cheerio!
Jim
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ORTHO film!!! Another senior slip for all to see...should have used that Preview feature....
Jim
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Wait, my bloody Fire tablet keeps changing words on me. Man, should have caught that anyway....
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Just out of curiosity, is it possible the horns of the Krampus figure were red with a black head. I ask because of the difference in tone in the second photo.
Brian James Riedel
The difference in tone of the horns in the close-up photo is given, like the difference in tone of the cross, by the curvature of the upper part of the fuselage under direct light, which also takes a portion of the top of the head. In the photo with the Albatross in full, no difference is noticeable between the horns and the rest of the profile.
So I think it could be an optical effect and not a different color.
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I just noticed this thread, and as it is on a subject I have great interest in, I thought I might chime in....Far be it from me to offer an opinion at odds with those of more expertise than my amateurish view, but I recall an interchange between Dan San
and Ronny of WNW re: color interpretation some 20+ years back in the Aerodrome. He noted that in monochromatic film the
green was always dark, as were red and yellow. It turns out that his advice was ignored and the green and mauve/lilac colors
we're reversed in WNW's illustrations. That said, I believe the rudder color of the photo in question could be green, but I posit that as the wheel covers have a similar shade, both might be red. As for the camouflage pattern, OAW tended to alternate the green and lilac on the wings, like the D.V, unlike the other Johann. D.IIIs, which tended, so not an absolute, to have the colors on both wings to match. I believe the upper wing extremities to be green, but due to reflection, it isn't obvious. Re: Krampus,
his horns might be a yellow or ochre, in contrast to what we expect to be a red tongue.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just another who stares at the pictures....
Cheerio!
Jim
I believe that the colors on the surface of the wings are most likely green and purple/lilac. An important but certainly not conclusive help (in the interpretation of colors one always navigates in a sea of suppositions) is given by the two shades on the right wing illuminated as one can see from the shadows of people, by a good light. Is the dark gray green and the light is lilac or vice versa? I have looked at many profiles of Albatros and I have never found the tail rudder (except for some but with the entire plane painted) green, the red generally appears very often dark but differs from the black of the crosses, what appears in the photo could also be red.
All hypotheses are welcome!!!! :) :D
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhLjy8tr/Screenshot-2025-02-14-alle-01-24-16.png)
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I agree on that the tail most probably isnt green, in my eyes the color shows up too dark compared to the wings green (same goes for liliac, this shows up much lighter in photos as it has a lot of white content the color) and as mentioned its not really seen. If it would the the same green it would be factory applied the same shade as the wing, however there is no evidence this was ever done.
As it does differ from the black of the cross, a shade of red would be my guess too, also for the spinner. There are other possibilities like dark blue too, however I would say red makes more sense, being a flashy color and often used for markings.
Black for the devils head I would say is correct. A red head on a varnished wood yellow-orange surface wouldn't have much contrast and visually (in real life) wouldn't be so appealing and striking, which I think was the intent of them. Tongue being red is a good bet.
Regards
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Gents, I mentioned the horns being yellow based on the close-up photo with a clear contrast to the rest of the head, with a darker tongue. An optical effect due to the fuselage curvature would more than likely result in a gradual change in shade;
in that pic, the tone is basically the same from horn tip to the dark haired head. At a distance, those tonal differences are
not visible.
As for the wing, the dark color against the fuselage is green. Lilac would never show as a dark color in that type of film.
Also, dark blue would appear as light grey and never dark like green, red, and yellow.
The light green/dark green D.III camou only appeared in an early batch of Johan. planes.
Color interpretations of Allied aircraft photos is easier because the insignias/cockades reveal the film type as they include red and blue together, while the German and Austrian markings are just black and white.
Cheers!
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Gents, I mentioned the horns being yellow based on the close-up photo with a clear contrast to the rest of the head, with a darker tongue. An optical effect due to the fuselage curvature would more than likely result in a gradual change in shade;
in that pic, the tone is basically the same from horn tip to the dark haired head. At a distance, those tonal differences are
not visible.
As for the wing, the dark color against the fuselage is green. Lilac would never show as a dark color in that type of film.
Also, dark blue would appear as light grey and never dark like green, red, and yellow.
The light green/dark green D.III camou only appeared in an early batch of Johan. planes.
Color interpretations of Allied aircraft photos is easier because the insignias/cockades reveal the film type as they include red and blue together, while the German and Austrian markings are just black and white.
Cheers!
I would exclude the yellow or ochre color for the horns because it would blend in too much with the wooden surface that surrounds them. The fact that they appear lighter for me is an effect of direct light and perhaps also because they are a little faded. Observing the images of the tradition of the early 20th century (not modern) the Krampus appears most of the time completely black. We are not then entering into the field of the interpretation of the Austro-Hungarian colors. I have a Phonix D.I 1/48 that I do not decide to build because I am not at all convinced by the dark brown spotted color on a lighter ochre/brown background that is found on all the profiles, it is such a difficult subject that almost no one dares to tackle, one day someone decided that the color was that and it has always been represented like that, reasons, no logical deductions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCLjQhm5/Screenshot-2025-02-14-alle-11-49-03.png)
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You're assuming varnished plywood is as dark or darker than a darkish yellow or ochre. The ply fuselage shows dark in that film type as it is pretty light, straw yellow color to quote the late great DanSan. Jasta 10 a/c had chrome yellow noses like the naval planes, and that color obviously differs from the rest of the plane. We can agree to disagree as there aren't any color absolutes in view of wear and fading, though WW1 a/c tended to be protected from poor weather.
Re: AH a/c pics, I agree, they're tough to interpret. As I concentrate on naval aircraft, I think the navy Phonix had a light fuselage, as their insignia had red stripes, or bands, so I believe the yellowish ply just appears dark because of said film which shows the red insignia as black. Later Navy version Phonix(s) may have had that brown or green blotching, but as you said,
it's a hard decision if one craves 'accuracy,' and like you, am reluctant to wing it...but really, who else cares how we finish our models if not in a contest?
Cheers!!!