forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: Berman on November 07, 2024, 01:58:08 PM
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Colin Owers, in the Summer 2024 issue of Over the Front magazine, makes a sound presentation that PC-10 (protective covering) was never green or greenish brown. The paint formula of yellow ochre, lamp black, red, blue, and red iron oxide produces chocolate or mud brown color. "The formulae for PC-10 and PC-12 were published in British Standard D.103 in November 1920 and again in 2D.103 of March 1922."
In an issue of Windsock International, Ray Rimell stated that PC-12 was never reddish brown and said it closely resembled the color of milk chocolate. Colin wrote that the aircraft in the RAF Museum are painted in the correct shade of brown PC-10 as this was matched to surviving samples provided by a Canadian museum. Is there someone who resides near the RAF Museum who could compare the fabric color to a Methuen Handbook of Color and possibly a Resene paint chip? Maybe this museum also has a sample of PC-12.
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I am always amused by experts who claim colour schemes from WWI could only be a certain way :) Someone had better go back in time and tell whoever painted Barker's Snipe that they used the wrong colour! I was surprised when I saw it in the Ottawa museum at how green it was.
British standards published in 1920 and 1922 are irrelevant because they were not in force in WWI. These are most likely trying to standardise a practice that was probably subject to variation. In 1919, WH Smith of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics in the US published a paper on doping practices and in that he states "The English Government for a long time has used a type of pigmented dope, khaki colored by iron pigments and lampblack, which is called P. C. 10." The unrestored DH9 at Le Bourget is a greenish/khaki colour.
I've attached a photo of an unrestored DH10 wing being cleaned at a museum near to me. It looks like a khaki colour to me. To my eyes it's got both elements of green and brown but is definitely on the browner rather than greener side. It could be described as "mud brown" but that depends on your definition of "mud", and there's no British standard for that!
Bottom line - there was no "exact" shade IMO. Do your own research and choose the references and sources that make sense to you.
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In my old modelling days I had to do with the very scarce information that I could get. When I found Humbrol's 'Authentic' colours at Hannant's, I used their 'RFC Green' (HB15) and it looked convincing to me. Looking at the better parts of the DH.10 photo here, I must say it doesn't look very far from the old Humbrol HB15.
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No joke, I actually painted the exterior of my house PC10 back in 2007. My only regret, again not joking, is that it doesn't look brown enough.
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I've attached a couple of pictures of Barker's Snipe. The colour changes quite a lot based on lighting (also a factor) but to me there's a lot of green going on.....
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Looks definitely green in the Snipe photos.
I wish I'd kept the old Humbrol HB15 tins, though they were probably unusable after all the years.
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I am not an expert, and I don't know how the WNW color schemes are generally appreciated, but this is what WNW advises for the (never released :'( )Handley Page O/100.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLK2gdXw/WNW-PC10-mix.jpg)
Willem
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Many of the pilot's autobiographies do refer to "brown" aircraft and I am quite happy with a brownish tone for my RFC and RAF aircraft.
However there was such a wide possibility for variation in mixing PC10 and PC12 at factories, repair shops etc, that I am comfortable with anything from chocolate to a browny-green. Since the tone would also vary according to lighting conditions, I'll happily use different shades within that spectrum for individual aircraft - and am happy to see greeny-browns or browny-greens on anybody else's models.
Here's a couple of my SE's to illustrate I'd actually be worried if all my PC10 subjects were the same shade! (FWIW)
Sandy
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/w49nBIk_md.jpg)
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I'm with Sandy on this. I refer to eyewitness accounts as the deciding factor here. I've never found any of these accounts referring to them as green. And therefore I have variations in brown as well.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/74cf0ebc-5fe3-42e2-9317-67db899b66d1.jpg) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/74cf0ebc-5fe3-42e2-9317-67db899b66d1.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/569dc6ac-85f6-410a-8568-398c421da3a3.jpg) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/569dc6ac-85f6-410a-8568-398c421da3a3.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/77eeee85-1a2f-46ae-bc3a-1a0cfa7c197c.png) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/77eeee85-1a2f-46ae-bc3a-1a0cfa7c197c.png) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/d6e34a5d-a573-485e-ba84-6dc603540f9d.jpeg) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/d6e34a5d-a573-485e-ba84-6dc603540f9d.jpeg) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/399677de-8775-4053-ac44-42ec2161f4f8.jpeg) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/23369dca-5e69-4fb6-a612-7f1549985561/399677de-8775-4053-ac44-42ec2161f4f8.jpeg)
There is no finite answer, hope this helps you sleep better.....
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I'm not an expert either (could there really be one on this subject?...)
Just two points - could eyewitnesses be more accurate than surviving examples of painted linen?
And could it be the colours described as 'brown' or 'chocolate' were actually PC12?
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Colours/pigments can change over time and an eye witness is someone's opinion and an opinion from one man can be different from another. Do people even see exactly the same colours as everyone or do the processes that involve light entering the eye, being understood by the brain then being put to memory to be recalled later differ from person to person. I have come across quite a few conversations about colours in my time, not just about WW1 but all sorts of subjects regarding modelling and painting and will no doubt still see more. Probably best choose the colour you are most happy with yourself.
Alan
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Do any pieces of PC-12 painted fabric still exist for comparison to PC_10?
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I'm with Sandy on this. I refer to eyewitness accounts as the deciding factor here. I've never found any of these accounts referring to them as green. And therefore I have variations in brown as well.
There is no finite answer, hope this helps you sleep better.....
I will look for the quote but Hank Burden of 56 squadron did a "Period Drawing" in which He identified all of the colors on his SE5a. His color description for the upper surfaces....Green! I Emphasize Period drawing, not done in a Post war writing from memory but while He looked at his aircraft! That being said I always go greenish brown/brownish green ::) ::)
RAGIII
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These images were painted by Arthur Streeton, Official Australian War Artist. He painted them on location in 1918 and I would presume his colouring would be reasonably accurate?
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I've cracked it!
The formula for PC10 and PV12 obviously inadvertently pre-discovered the active component of ChromaFlair!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChromaFlair#:~:text=ChromaFlair%20is%20a%20pigment%20used,light%20source%20and%20viewing%20angle.
It changed depending on where/how you viewed it.
Damn clever these RFC boffins!
Sandy
(PS The Germans were so impressed at the chameleon possibilities of ChromaFlair PC10 that they tried to achieve something similar with Hex splodges of different colours: but the resultant 'lozenge' wasn't dynamic and you could only see the aggregate mixed tone, not the individual shifting colours.)
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Do any pieces of PC-12 painted fabric still exist for comparison to PC_10?
Yes, plenty. Most are in the collections of museums and collectors (like Peter Jackson), who do not let ordinary people like us look at them!
But the biggest problem you have is that you do not know what you are looking at. The fabric is not stamped or marked with "this is PC10" or "this is PC12". We can only make educated guesses at what colours were used on each aircraft and therefore if it is PC10 or PC12.
Like I said earlier in this thread, late war Sopwith Snipes were "supposed" to be brown PC12 but Barker's Snipe has a distinctly green look to it, which really surprised me when I saw it. This is an original artifact that was recovered after his air combat and was designated an official War Trophy. It has been kept in the Ottawa museum ever since so is going to be pretty close to the original colour.
IMO it really isn't possible to say for sure what these colours actually were. And there would have been a lot of variation because of the production methods. So don't worry too much and make your own conclusions.
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(PS The Germans were so impressed at the chameleon possibilities of ChromaFlair PC10 that they tried to achieve something similar with Hex splodges of different colours: but the resultant 'lozenge' wasn't dynamic and you could only see the aggregate mixed tone, not the individual shifting colours.)
I can see the color shifting ? when I am completely drunk.
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I really wish they did use ChromaFlair and the paint was as also available for modellers. Imagine what the aircraft boats and armour subjects we make would look like if we painted them like that TVR!
Alan
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Through all of these posts I keep seeing folks refer to "brown-green" and "green-brown". Forgive me, but when I see those terms I think "olive drab". :) ;) 8)
This is the stuff that makes modeling WWI aircraft fun!!
Warren
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"Forgive me, but when I see those terms I think "olive drab"." - WD
Yes, you'd think so Warren - also "khaki" - but that's the whole nub of the problem - neither quite nails it!
But, rather than perennially getting hung up on the old PC10 chestnut, let's just go with what we feel right at the time. I know my choice happily varies a bit with each kit.
Isn't it ironic that a directive (PC10) intended to standardise on a uniform colouring for all RFC aircraft should have caused such confusion and variety 100 years later!
Sandy
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Looks definitely green in the Snipe photos.
I wish I'd kept the old Humbrol HB15 tins, though they were probably unusable after all the years.
Those old humbrol paints don't go off if they are properly sealed. I've got a set of Authentic colours from the fleet air arm (I think, I haven't seen the box for while) but last time I looked they were fine, just needed a good mix.
Cheers
Andrew
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I use MRP lacquers now and they have pc12 and an early or late PC10 to choose from, based on new or aged appearance. They look about right to me. The Shuttleworth collection gives away strips of fabric from their restorations, which I know is new, but they do put a lot of thought into matching them. Looks OK to me. It?s inexact and I purposely vary my tone a bit on builds to represent that.
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I think a lot of the problems occur because people mistake the tropical red-brown for PC12! The Shuttleworth Bristol M1 is tropical, not PC12.
Ian