forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Hints and Tips/Questions about modeling => Topic started by: Modelnut on February 11, 2013, 12:57:25 AM
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Why does superglue sometimes instantly bond and other times take forever to cure?
I use the smallest drop possible, if it's too much I wick it with a paper towel. Is humidity a factor? I have central heating so my house is normally on the dry side.
Slow curetime can be a pain when doing bracing wires!
I use mono for rigging and any regular tube superglue brand by the way.
Any answers from a modelling chemist are welcome! :)
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Hey Modelnut,
I'm no modelling chemist but figure I've encountered all the problems superglue can pose and have at least reduced my disaster scale by 75%. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "regular tube superglue; I use stuff in tiny bottles (1 oz. and 2 oz.) by Mercury Adhesives and/or H&D. It comes in various consistencys from extra thick to extra thin. In my experience the thicker it is the faster it cures although I also note that less is better (and faster to cure) I use mono for rigging as well and find that using CA Accelerator makes the whole process relatively painless. The stuff works instantly and does not appear to compromise strength or durability of the bond.
Last, applicator selection is important. I use pins for smaller thicker applications and for the thin stuff little applicators fashioned from sewing needles. Simply cut the "eye" portion of the needle to produce a "U" shape at that end, pop the sharp point into a piece of wood dowel for a handle, and you're done. The open "U" holds a bead of thin glue which "wicks" onto your part when contacted. These work really well for the rigging process, I use brass tubes at the terminals like most and the applicator touched on the mono where it joins the tube wicks into the tube thus cementing the mono to the inside walls.
Sorry for the long winded reply; some others may have better directions which I look forward to, Ca is an aspect of building I'd like to get better at! If the "Applicator" is still puzzling let me know, I can pop a quick photo on here.
Cheers,
Lance
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Maybe you will find the info here useful:
http://miniatures.about.com/od/gluereviews/f/When-To-Use-Super-Glue-Or-Cyanoacrylate-Glue-For-Miniatures-Models-Dollhouses.htm
Btw, in my experience thicker CA cures more slowly than the thin stuff. Accelerant is useful sometimes. Capillary action is the main thing to keep in mind in getting the thin stuff to do your bidding...
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Modelnut,
I have thesame experience. CA glue is sometimes the best there is and sometimes worthless. It doesn't stick at all and all of a sudden it cures.
It depends a lot on what Lance said. Temperature is an issue too. I keep my CA glue in the fridge, but it needs to get warmer again for better use. And there are also a lot of different brands with different qualities. The ones I like the most are ZAP CA and ZAP-A-GAP (thicker variant). But I use the local variant of Bison too with a brush. Bison will probably only be sold in the Netherlands.
I like the tip from Lance. I am going to sacrifice some needles too. I mostly use cocktail pins, but the problem with those is that the drop of glue is not at the tip, but a little bit above. You need to have a kind of dropping device and the cut needle seems to be a good solution.
I'll look into the link from Bo too to see if I can learn some more.
regards,
Ivo
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Great tip about cutting the needle eye tip into the U shape Lance :) I shall be trying that method very soon!
I have been using the pointy end to try ad place minimal CA in rigging holes etc but have often found that the droplet wicks up the needle, similar to Ivo, therefore I end up dabbing it on sideways and using too much. I use thin CA to get the smallest amount possible.
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Thanks guys for the input. Last night everything was working fast and strong. This morning the stuff just won't bond quickly enough. Same glue, same mono, same technique. This why I ask about humidity being a factor. We have rain moving in this afternoon where last night was dry and clear. I keep the house on the cool side- 67- 70 degrees F. I wash my hands often to keep skin oils to a minimum.
I use a sharp toothpick to apply and SuperGlue brand tube glue.
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I breath out with my mouth open, over the parts to accelerate the CA.
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Another fan of the clipped sewing needle, here. I like to keep a tea light or small candle burning on the bench while I'm applying CA with the needle. Eventually the CA dries and you can't pick up anymore. Just stick the tip in the flame to burn off the dried glue, and you're good to go!
Lindsay
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I stick the modified needle applicator into a wine cork -- it stands up on its own which is handy, the cork fits the had nicely as a tool. I keep a small jar of acetone on my bench which the cork stops neatly-- while I'm working with CA I stick the applicator into the acetone jar to keep it from clogging. Works perfectly for me.
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This is what I really value this Forum for; 2 or 3 great little ideas in only a few hours. Two points, one - Bo is absolutely correct in that thicker CA dries slower then thin, just had a bad moment is all! Second, though probably intuitive, sewing needles have different sizes and also different shaped and sized eyes, so you can vary the capacity of the "U" both by size and the length you cut it. I have 4 or five in varying capacities in my tool "pile" at all times.
Got this little gem from a fellow modeller on another Site and have since discovered that I had to have been one of only a few in the modelling world that didn't know about it! :o
Cheers,
Lance
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For rigging get hold of some of the really thin super glue, and a needle and cut the end of the eye to create a two pronged fork.
I put a drop of glue in a contact lens container and it stays liquid for ages. Then dip fork in the glue and apply the prong to the bit you want glueing. The glue will set instantly and unless you are incredibly unlucky will be invisible as its so thin and you are only applying a tiny amount.
I used to have the exact same problem with medium viscosity glue and as you have found it takes different times to set whereas the extra thin sets immediately.
The fork will get bunged up pretty quickly but the glue can easily be burnt off with a lighted match.
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Got this little gem from a fellow modeller on another Site and have since discovered that I had to have been one of only a few in the modelling world that didn't know about it! :o
Well Lance, it seems that you have found one of the other few ;) I have been working with CA glue for over 18 years or so and the only tip that I got is to bend a tiny ring at the end of a wire to do the trick. But the nice thing about the clipped needle is that you will have a drop of glue really hanging at the bottom where it should be. I won't be plundering our sewing gear, but I am sure to get me several sices of needles for this purpose this week. And save some corkes too.
I'll share it with my railway modelling friends who as far as I know aren't using this trick either.
regards,
Ivo
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An alternative to using a cork for a handle is to heat the needle and jam it into a leftover piece of sprue. But I like the cork cuz it stands up.
If you burn the CA off the needle, avoid breathing the smoke, it is toxic. Of course Acetone ain't great to breath either so choose your poison :-)
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Modelnut - Super Glue reacts with the amount of moisture in the air, it needs water moisture to cause it to bond. If you are in an environment which is basically very dry it will take longer for the CA to react.
Des.
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Got this little gem from a fellow modeller on another Site and have since discovered that I had to have been one of only a few in the modelling world that didn't know about it! :o
Well Lance, it seems that you have found one of the other few ;) I have been working with CA glue for over 18 years or so and the only tip that I got is to bend a tiny ring at the end of a wire to do the trick. But the nice thing about the clipped needle is that you will have a drop of glue really hanging at the bottom where it should be. I won't be plundering our sewing gear, but I am sure to get me several sices of needles for this purpose this week. And save some corkes too.
I'll share it with my railway modelling friends who as far as I know aren't using this trick either.
Ivo,
Please spread it around; it is a great little technique which apparently is taken for granted by those who have used it for years. When I started using it the difference was incredible, and read GCN's post, obviously not a new trick to him! I like Bo's thoughts on the cork handle however prefer the thinner version offered by dowel or a thick piece of sprue, matter of personal preference.
Cheers,
Lance
regards,
Ivo
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I just put the needle into my pin vise. Perfect control that way. When I'm done I can take it out and out it in it's own holder like a drill bit.
LT
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A lot of good tips here. I will put them to use.
Perhaps we could make this thread a "sticky" for future reference? :)
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I finally got around to trying out the clipped needle tool today and it's made my super glue experience about 100% better than what it's been in the past. I may actually be able to use this stuff with some degree of effectiveness from hereon in.
Cheers,
Chris
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What do you guys use to clip the needle eye? After 45 years of modeling this is a new one on me too. :o I must make one of these!
Regards,
Bob
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Bob, I used some wire cutters, and then filed the "prongs" that resulted to knock off the burrs.
HTH!
Warren
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Bob, I used some wire cutters, and then filed the "prongs" that resulted to knock off the burrs.
HTH!
Warren
Yup, diagonal wire cutters ("dikes") like wot you use to snip welding wire work nicely. Don't use your nice sprue cutters, you'll ruin them. Clean up the sharp edges with fine file or sandpaper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagonal_pliers
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What do you guys use to clip the needle eye? After 45 years of modeling this is a new one on me too. :o I must make one of these!
Regards,
Bob
Bob,
Make 5 or 6 (of varying size) , they are "cheap magic"! I also use wire cutters or just snap them with pliers, cleanup via the trusty Dremel with an abrasive stone tip.
Cheers,
Lance
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I've always found working with CA problematic. Some people have suggested to me using a kicker to speed curing but it has to be the Vital brand, Vital Bond 403 Super Glue Activator to be precise. Most kickers leave a white residue after they have dried/evaporated, Vital doesn't so is safe to use.
Looks like a trip to the local haberdashers for some needles and another go at using CA for me then.
Peter
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I use a kicker - it leaves no residue, even over decals, and the speed of action is absolutely bloody instant!
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i clip my needle with spruecutters, just make sure your eyes are out of the way for the flying objects.
Then I insert it into a squared off cocktail stick, I do the same with interdental brushes to create cheap airbrush brush cleaners.
I don't like kickers I use deluxe materials super glue and the extra thin set instantly and the thick gel stuff creates a pretty strong bond in 30 seconds or so
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I used to use the "clipped needle" applicator, but spent so much time un-bunging the hole I just use a sharpened cocktail stick, or, I have a reel of thick mono-type fishing line and just clip off a bit of that to pick up a drop of glue.
I have some "good" glue in the bottles but it never keeps that long and is wasteful so mostly I have been using some small tubes I found in a "pound-store" type shop and got a whole load of them for 50p each. They are not brilliant but do ok for general things.
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But what I really came here to post was that I remember seeing a post a while ago by a chap who did a comparison of various types of applicator and concluded the most accurate application was from a tool that had a very small ball on the tip; the glue formed on and came off the top of the ball-arc which put a small dot exactly where he wanted. I think it might have been a dentists' tool, the post might have been on the AeroScale web site? Not tried it myself (for want of such a tool)
NP
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A variation on the clipped needle idea could be to use the cut offs of twisted wires used for making turnbuckle eyelets? I wonder if the glue droplet would be held by the two wire strand ends rather than wicking up? If so, this could be great for applying CA to rigging points as the cut offs are the same size as the eyelet shafts?
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I'm learning a ton from this thread! I wondered why I sometimes had huge problems getting my rigging glued, and other times it was perfect....I was renting an apartment with electric heat which dried the air. In the summer it was not a problem! I will also be buying some needles very soon. Thanks everyone
Ian
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Just some facts and history about CA glue ..........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
i will just add to the thread that not all accelerators are created equal as we all probable know. Many will crystallizes the glue making it look terrible as they are acetone based . I also fond that plain water will crystallize CA.
i recently found a band/formulation of accelerator that promises not to do this and is about the best that I have ever use over the years, This
includes using CA on balsa and foam . So, shop around for accelerator and find one you like .
Personally, I just let it cure on its own if at all possible. :)
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Hi All
Like IanB I'm learning so much and the clipping the eye of the needle tip has proved brilliant. Thank you!
My gripe with Superglue has often been the vast amount that seems to go to waste as nozzles get blocked etc, even when I try to be scrupulously carefully in cleaning and freeing the nozzle. It came as a great delight to find that the one which has stood the longest test of time is by far the cheapest one of all and just came from the homeware section of my local supermarket.
One thing that I have learned is to be more discriminating in my use of different types of glue. So now, if I'm gluing an etched metal part with a reasonable contact area and which is unlikely to fall victim to careless hands then a simple white glue normally sold for gluing items like paper, card, cloth etc has proved more than adequate. It has the added bonus of allowing something to be repositioned if it's not quite right; which in my case, happens a lot!
Best wishes
Nigel
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I get longer shelf life out of Superglue by storing it in the refridgerator when not in use and by using a simple straight pin as a closure. The screw on plastic caps tend to encourage glue build up in the nozzle area and blockage. The pin will need a pliers removal often but is very effective. In between Builds I use the screw on cap again. As for the storage in the Fridge, make sure it doesn't get used as a garnish or fed to the gold fish! I recently opened a small bottle of "super thin" from the fridge that was labeled 2010, it's just like new.
Cheers,
Lance
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I found a vendor on e-bay that markets CA in a unique container.
The plastic screw on top has a metal "pin" imbedded in it that more or less seals seals the matching hole in the container.
The rest of the cap seals it completely.
So, the tip is always clear when opening.
All CA should be packaged like this.
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I found a vendor on e-bay that markets CA in a unique container.
The plastic screw on top has a metal "pin" imbedded in it that more or less seals seals the matching hole in the container.
The rest of the cap seals it completely.
So, the tip is always clear when opening.
All CA should be packaged like this.
I have some from Mercury Adhesives with the same cap, best system however I still manage to get the mating surfaces to "Mate"!
Cheers,
Lance :-[
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I swear it has a mind of its own. It unfailingly glues things I don't want it to, while at the same time it never seems to do the job I want it to. Spawn of the devil says I!
Cheers,
Chris
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I am so careful with it, (honest) using just tiny quantities on a piece of brightly coloured card taken from a cereal box with fresh toothpicks and clipped needles. So how do I explain to my wife that the lower sleeve of the beautiful casual shirt she bought me for Christmas last year has a small rock-hard (and so far unmovable) blob on it?
I was once told by the wife of a senior professional in his field that, at a time when glue-sniffing was becoming a serious issue, he had wanted to get just a very mild sense of what it involved. Sadly he chose a super glue for the experiment and subsequently the tube had to be removed from the end of his nose by a doctor. A case of super glue nose woes?
Best wishes
Nigel
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Wow , I thought I was the only one with this issue, Chris I think you nailed it. Hell spawn indeed! Now if I could only get this strut un stuck from my forehead ..... :o
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A refrigerator or freezer to store Super glue is not a good idea since there is too much moisture and warming and freezing gust breaks it down faster. I have been storing my super glue in an empty Olive jar with about an inch of dried silicon powder in the bottom of the jar and kept closed until needed. This procedure absorbs the moisture and I have had some of these glues kept in the jar for up to 2 years. The dried silicon powder is used to dry flowers and can be found at a craft store such as Michaels or other. I have had the original jar of dried silicon for over 25 years and never had to replace. it.
Alec
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In order to keep the plastic cap from being glued to the nozzle, wipe the nozzle with an acetone soaked rag before putting the cap back on.
As far as the glue hardening inside the nozzle, I've taken to cutting the nozzle down to a depth that really opens up the hole in the nozzle. The only caveat to this method is "It WILL pour out quickly", especially the super thin stuff, but the nozzle hole won't clog. ;)
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I really like the needle idea. I've been using toothpicks for years and keep modifying the tip to get the drop of super glue to hang at the end. Very annoying.
One trick that I've been using that seems to work for rigging holes is to drill out the hole a bit to clean out paint, grease, or whatever collects in them. I use either a .013" or .010" bit. And use as little glue as possible. Too much slows down the cure time.
Another tip that I think has already been mentioned is to clean PE with alcohol first. That also seems to help with sticking.
Joe