forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Hints and Tips/Questions about modeling => Topic started by: Von Schlepp on February 05, 2013, 04:03:24 AM
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Ok, I still like brush painting.
I have been trying to switch to acrylics from enamels but the result is not the same. Enamels "lay down" so much different than acrylics do.
It's very frustrating.
I've been using Vallejo because I have a ton of it for figure painting. I airbrush my Tamiya and Gunze with no problems...Vallejo air is pretty good too.
Has anyone had this problem?
-Roger
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Ok, I still like brush painting.
I have been trying to switch to acrylics from enamels but the result is not the same. Enamels "lay down" so much different than acrylics do.
It's very frustrating.
I've been using Vallejo because I have a ton of it for figure painting. I airbrush my Tamiya and Gunze with no problems...Vallejo air is pretty good too.
Has anyone had this problem?
-Roger
For sure, the acrylics brush much differently than enamels. You have to approach them with a different mindset I think. Advantages -- they dry very quickly and lay down really well, even if you puddle it on -- disadvantages -- well, they skin over quickly and you can't brush them out the way you are used to with slow drying enamels.
You can add retarder from the art supply store which really helps; also always make sure your brush is wetted before dipping it into the pot. Avoid going back and forth -- instead, let it dry and come back.
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Thanks Tony i'll try it for sure.
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As a brush painter I have only found two acrylics which brush nicely and don't leave awful brush marks but settle into a nice uniform coat.
Foundation, the old formula side range to the Citadel ( Warhammer) paints is my favourite. Thins with tap water, brushes perfectly and often one coat is enough. As good as the ancient and lamented Humbrol Authentics enamels. There is a new formula Citadel out now but I have not used it yet. Note my praise is for the Foundation brand range of acrylics, not the parent brand Citadel, although the two lines can be mixed. Citadel does not brush as nicely as Foundation.
The other acrylic I love is Humbrol. Thins with tap water, brushes very nicely, nice uniform coat. I have been a Humbrol user all my hobby life and am now converting from Humbrol enamels to acrylics.
Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia
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Thanks David for the hints and tips on the acrylic paints. You say that the Humbrol acrylic paints brush very well, how do they spray, if you haven't had the opportunity to use an air brush have you heard any reports from people who have. Like you, I have been using Humbrol paints (enamels) my whole modeling life and have found them to be excellent, slow drying though. If the new Humbrol acrylics are as good I would certainly make the change especially if they spray well, I presume they are quick drying like Gunze acrylics.
Des.
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Des, I don't have a whole lot of experience airbrushing Humbrol acrylics, but I've done it a few times. I thinned them with about 40% plain tap water, and they airbrushed very nicely. The only problem I found was that the finish, both airbrushed and hand brushed, was quite rough, and needed to be polished with very fine wet-and-dry. One of the colors I've used is yellow, and the color was very dense even with one coat.
For hand-brushing acrylics, which I've been doing for decades now, my biggest rules of thumb are:
Thin the paint slightly with water, which I do simply by dipping the brush in water, wicking off the excess, then dipping it in the paint. This insures a minimum of brush strokes, but generally requires two coats, brushed at right angles to each other.
Never, ever brush back over the paint until it has set hard. Doing so will remove the partially dry paint rather than adding more on top. I still re-learn this one on nearly every build :-[
Peter
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Des, sorry I have no experience with airbrushing Humbrol acrylics so I cannot answer your question. I have heard mixed reports from others about spraying Humbrol acrylics but my experience is only in brush painting and in that regard this is an excellent paint.
Kind regards
Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia
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The only problem I found was that the finish, both airbrushed and hand brushed, was quite rough, and needed to be polished with very fine wet-and-dry.
It sounds like you need something to break the surface tension, this is the reason why water does not work. You could try thinning with isopropyl alcohol, tamyia acrylic thinner, or almost any other acrylic thinner.
For hand brushing you need some liquid with higher boiling temperature to slow down drying. Ethylenglykol (antifreeze) will help you.
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I use a small amount of lacquer thinners in my Gunze acrylics, it makes the paint spray beautifully and it settles to a perfectly even surface, would the same apply if I use lacquer thinners in the Humbrol acrylics.
Des.
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I rarely use my airbrush at present, but that is for a few reasons - not least my laziness! Also, since we moved house last summer I no longer have a back porch where I can spray "outside" with plenty of ventilation (door open) but under shelter from wind and blowing dust and other detritus.
I use humbrol and revell - both thinned with water. At present I prefer revell aqua and hand brush in 2 or 3 thin coats. The nascelle on my Fe2B and the Roland fuselage are all hand brushed. I will often use a plastic primer from a rattle tin, as this gives an excellent key for the paint, but does need rubbing down for the smoothest finish.
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I find Vallejo ModelAir great for brush painting with. Yes it's designed for airbrush use, but it also creates really smooth paint layers with a brush, straight out of the bottle. Thinned Model Colour doesn't seem to have the same pigment density, and I don't really get on with it.
Winsor and Newton series 7 brushes really improved the finish I was getting too. Expensive, but they last so long they're actually good value too.
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Thanks Rizzo for the tip on the paint brushes, these will be next on my must have list.
Des.
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Yes, W&N series 7 are my favorite as well.
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Hey guys, thanks for your responses!
Dave, i'm well aware of Citadel! I still own a number of the "foundation" paints.
All their new and old ranges mix well. I do own some of the 'base" colours in the new range are similar to foundation. Then the others are called 'layer" are much thinner. they are designed to be built up with their style of highlighting etc.
I will try these and post a pic.
Also, I've used W&N series 7 and Floquil brushes as long as I can remember. Worth EVERY cent.
And although I love airbrushing Gunze and Tamiya i'll stick to that.
As I said before I like Model air. It has been suggested that I brush paint model air before...I'll give it a shot as it where.
Again, i'm glad I found this forum.
-Roger
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Des, what colour is CDL?? ;)
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CDL is Clear Doped Linen.
cheers
Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia
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Hey I was just kidding. I was making a reference to one of the build logs.
"what colour is CDL? How long is string?"
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Which PC-10?
Early or late?.....faded?
I wish I could find the Humbrol colour for it.
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I found a shop here in Calgary that sells all Humbrol products. The fella says he's gonna stock it forever.
This weekend i'm going to pick up some of their acrylics too and try brushing them.
-Rog
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I found a shop here in Calgary that sells all Humbrol products. The fella says he's gonna stock it forever.
This weekend i'm going to pick up some of their acrylics too and try brushing them.
-Rog
Von Schlepp,
Can you provide the name of the Calgary Shop? I used to go to Uncle Bill's on occasion but havn't been downtown in years. Have a Daughter in Airedrie though so visit occasionally and a Humbrol stock would be worth a trip into the downtown. I hear the fellow that ran Uncle Bill's is not well (Rick Chin?) and out of business. Used to be a great help to me when I visited often on business.
Cheers,
Lance :)
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I have heard that Humbrol acrylics brush very well, I am going to give them a try soon, I have yet to hear how well they spray, if they spray like Gunze acrylics I will certainly be building up my stocks of Humbrol.
Des.
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although i have 2 airbrushes and do use them for certain things . i actually prefer brush painting in most cases. i blows some modellers minds. i have been called a liar when i say "i painted this plane by brush" so it is definately possible to have excellent results with brush. i have to say my favorite acrylic is old green label pollyscale. the red label stuff is o.k. but not quite as good. i have also had success with model master acrylics. the key with those are making sure they are thinned well and retarder doesnt hurt. retarder is the only way you can make tamiya paints behave btw. anyway when i can i use a wide very soft square tip brush which works great. another trick that helps to acheive that flawless finish is clear coats. once i am done painting i brush on some self leveling future(klear) then decal another coat of future then spray rattle can dullcote. i the addition of the clear coat does a ton to smooth out any impefections you might have and matte finishes in general are harder to see imperfections, with gloss cotes to me it seems to show off flaws. in certain cases after the above treatment i have sanded or rather honed or polished which smooths things out. sometimes i end up with a random bump in the paint. then a couple light matte coats again.recently i have been experimenting with acrylic paint. i found a type of bulk acryl base at the local art supply store. i bought that and concentrated pigments and have been making my own paints from scratch. using diff additives to refine qualities. ive gotten to a place where i have a decent product. extremely matte. the thought occured to make a line of ww1 aero paints to sell to friends but that would be down the line. i am happy with what i'm doing and the finishes i'm getting on my models but i dont have it to the point where i could guarantee consistancy . maybe one day.
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Lance, the shop is Model land. 3409A 26th. ave. s.w.
403 249 1661.
Like I mentioned, great selection and price.
Rick does not look the greatest, he has a shop in the n.e. (last 3 or more years) Always been good to me.
Sometimes I'll go there and he won't be open.
I haven't brushed polly scale or MM.
Did ok brushing vallejo this week though.
-Roger
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Thanks Roger, I'll try to drop in there next time I'm in town. Sorry to hear Rick is indeed not well, can I bother you for his shop address as well, maybe I'll try to find him at work next time as well. No rush but would like to see him if I can.
Cheers,
Lance
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Hi again Lance. The shop is in Castle Ridge, north of Mcknight in this goofy little industrial park.
#605 4655 54th. ave. N.E. T3J-3Z4
403-277-2762 I usually phone first.
-Roger
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I still prefer Humbrol enamels :-\
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Thanks Roger, I appreciate the info.
Cheers,
Lance
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Hey Guys, I know it was suggested to use different brushes etc. when brushing acrylics.
But until you do some things through trial and error BY ONES SELF. You never learn.
I was painting a wing section with Vallejo "buff" a decent colour by the way for using under losenge...
It was doing that damn acrylic streaky crap. I grabbed an old large sable brush and the wing looked airbrushed. Well it's very smooth to say the least.
I'll airbrush some clear over top now.
Have a good day everyone,
-Von Schlepp
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this is my experience too. a large soft brush will leave a nearly flawless surface. especially if your paint is thinned correctly.