forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Scratch builds => Topic started by: torbiorn on October 08, 2021, 05:00:21 AM
-
Hello,
Not sure what the rules say about posting the same-ish build log in two fora, but I’m curious to see the response of different crowds. Someone do stop me if this behaviour is frowned upon.
I guess it is known to this crowd, but the Friedrichshafen FF.49 was essentially an FF.33 with a stronger engine and strengthened structure, developed late in the war. About 240 were built by Friedrichshafen and, under license, Sablatnig. After the armistice several other nations acquired surplus machines. Sweden bought 4, Finland five, Denmark at least 7 and Norway four for civilian use. I’ll be building one of the Sablatnig-built Swedish machines.
As you can see on this example below the FF49 looks pretty much like you expect your typical float plane to look like, which I take as a testimony to its design.
(https://dms-cf-07.dimu.org/image/02TzCHApvG?filename=FVMF.001371.jpg)
The model will be built from strip and sheet styrene and maybe one or two items from the spares box.
I made a start. Not finding any references whatever for the internals, I made the dubious decision to imitate someone building a kit:
(https://i.imgur.com/zBcekwx.jpg)
Some elements I copied from Lukgraph’s FF33, but I suspect they - lacking sources too? - largely copied the H-B W.29.
This may be a dud start - I just read that the plane was built up by steel tubes as opposed to the wooden frames of the earlier FF33. The fuel tank and chair I should be able to keep at least... Although it makes me wonder why the Danish replica claiming to be completely accurate is being built using wooden frames. Grrr 😣
https://tekniskmuseum.dk/event/aabent-vaerksted-2018-04-05/2018-04-05/
Maybe the not the entire plane was made by steel tubes? Looking at this and other images, there is a shadow along the aft side that suggests a steel tube, starting in the frame separating the pilot and observer, but forward it looks very much like earlier planes. Possibly I can keep quite a bit of my first try by adding this tubular longeron to the observer’s side and keeping the wood frames up front?
(https://i.imgur.com/g0bA0nR.jpg)
In any case, since even the Danish museum replica-makers are obviously not sure about the construction, there is some inevitable guesswork ahead.
-
Looks like a great start to a unique Model! As for posring in Multiple Venues I don't think there is Any Issue At all. I do it MYself and have never had an issue 8)
RAGIII
-
I certainly don't see any problems with publishing on several Forums from a moderation point of view, as long as comments from them are not inter mixed and inputs and feedback remain independent and not cross referenced. We've had many Members do this and to date there's never been an issue.
Cheers,
Lance
-
This looks fantastic! I will be following this one closely, especially regarding the importance of the FF 49 in early Finnish air force. Unfortunately there´s very little technical info on the plane type in Finnish archives. It was very early days and the pilots and mechanics were well versed on the type in Germany, so it was probably not necessary to have any technical manuals etc for the FF planes. I have quite a mny pics of the 49B and C in finnish service, so if there´s any "dead angles", I might be able to help here and there
cheers, Skyhook
-
Gorgeous looking aircraft and a very fine start too. Looking forward to watching it progress!
-
Great to see you tackle this project.
You may be interested in my old build of FF.49 from Top Gun kit.
https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2406.0
If the photos do not show up, let me know, I can still share them.
Of course the interior in my model is the educated guess...
But I have a question, where did you find the info about the steel structure? I have never come across it.
-
Excellent, then I’ll go ahead.
This looks fantastic! I will be following this one closely, especially regarding the importance of the FF 49 in early Finnish air force. Unfortunately there´s very little technical info on the plane type in Finnish archives. It was very early days and the pilots and mechanics were well versed on the type in Germany, so it was probably not necessary to have any technical manuals etc for the FF planes. I have quite a mny pics of the 49B and C in finnish service, so if there´s any "dead angles", I might be able to help here and there
cheers, Skyhook
I found very little in the Swedish sources as well, and fewer photos than for many other contemporary types. I have not seen many Finnish images and I’d be happy to see them.
Great to see you tackle this project.
You may be interested in my old build of FF.49 from Top Gun kit.
https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2406.0
If the photos do not show up, let me know, I can still share them.
Of course the interior in my model is the educated guess...
But I have a question, where did you find the info about the steel structure? I have never come across it.
Thank you for that, it’ll be useful. The images do show up, with the photobucket stamp but that’s ok.
I see you did add the longeron halfway up the fuselage in observer’s pit. I think I will rebuild mine to include it.
The steel tube reference I have only seen in one location - Swedish wikipedia. I’ll see if it can be deduced where it came from, but it seems deliberate enough since the FF33 page mentions wooden frame construction.
-
That looks to me as though you are off to a very fine start. An unusual type and no kit so it is an ideal subject for a scratch build. I will follow with interest.
Stephen.
-
I'm following this with interest, does the tubular metal framework question need to be a problem? I have a similar problem with my BE2c where some of the struts were metal. This wasn't apparent from the Windsock Datafile. I'm choosing to ignore it, plod on when I can do better research next time.
Looking forward to seeing the next update!
Richie
-
That looks to me as though you are off to a very fine start. An unusual type and no kit so it is an ideal subject for a scratch build. I will follow with interest.
Stephen.
Welcome and thanks. Non-existance of a [good, non-expensive] kit is a sort of requirement for me. To the degree I’ve been miffed when someone issues a kit of something I wanted to scratch.
I'm following this with interest, does the tubular metal framework question need to be a problem? I have a similar problem with my BE2c where some of the struts were metal. This wasn't apparent from the Windsock Datafile. I'm choosing to ignore it, plod on when I can do better research next time.
Looking forward to seeing the next update!
Richie
No, not per se - I just don’t know what it looked like. But I think I will just proceed with what I have and pretend that the cockpit was still framed in wood. I will never find out from the following reason:
In late 1918 Sweden bought two surplus FF.49C. They liked them and wanted to buy more. At this point a nosy British delegation pointed out that this violated the treaty of Versailles, forbidding Germany to export military equipment. Although the Swedes didn’t care for the treaty and happily supplied their air forces with German planes and material during most of the 20s (only switching towards Britain and the US in the 30s), I guess this was too much in the spotlight. Instead they bought two Sablatnig-built planes that had been converted to civilian use - and converted them back. The conversion consisted essentially of rebuilding the cockpit. They probably used the two first as a guide, but had no issues with making changes or improvements, so, long story short, having no idea how the cockpits may have looked I have now clear conscience to design it myself.
-
hi!!! Here´s a few pics of FF49C in Finnish Air Force in 1918-1923. I tried to pick some that show good details... The Finnish FFs were in the original German guise for most of the service with finnish insignia and numbers added. Later on the paintwork was changed after repairs and re-coverings. Most of the photos originate from the archives of both Finnish Aviation Museum and Finnish Air Force Museum. I have several more if you need them... and just ask if you want to know more about the actual planes, places and events regarding the photos
cheers, Skyhook
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51568871041_ddb3775fc8_h.jpg)]/url] Close up of the Benz engine on a FF49
[url=http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2myTRHB](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51568073737_8e66b94144_h.jpg)][url=https://flic.kr/p/2myTRHB] (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2myXWJe) The port side front
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51569113378_aeaa3968c6_h.jpg)] (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2myZbLs) A good view of the generator for the radio equipment
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51569798930_6b524d5b72_h.jpg)][ (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2mz3Gyj) Note the filler cap behind the observers cockpit
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51568870881_ef18a4da51_h.jpg)] (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2myXWFt) Note how the lozenges of the naval fabric were not matched when sewn in place.
-
Wonderful photos. It’d be fun to do a plane with shabby lozenge, but people seeing the model would think it is the modeller wjo made a shoddy job. Many thanks, they are helpful. Especially the crashed one showing the filler cap (not on my drawings nor do I have a photo showing this area clearly) and serrated structure of the decking, and the one with the radio generator. The Swedish planes used a similar or identical setup, but this is the first time I saw a clear photo. Does Finland have a digital archive of sorts, in the same way as Sweden&Norway (digitalmuseum.se /no)?
—-
I have made a little progress. I usually build the whole thing mentally before I start, to find out whether there are any showstoppers. The most tricky part I came up with is the nose:
(https://dms-cf-06.dimu.org/image/02TzCHAqDz?filename=FVMF.001403.jpg&dimension=max)
As you can see the Swedish plane had no spinner and the open annulus between the panels and that backing plate for the prop is fully visible. It will be tricky to make that both perfectly round and razor thin - especially since I opted to make a built-up fuselage rather than moulding. I settled for making the circle first and sanding down later on. I found a tube of hard plastic of correct diameter and filed it down: the panels will be glued directly to its outer surface and then sanded down from inside and out.
(https://i.imgur.com/sutAcS2.jpg)
I should probably continue with the engine to make sure it fits *before* I close this up.
-
Excellent progress. Your wood interior looks Great. Nice work on the round section.
RAGIII
-
Superb work again. Good planning, I hope I get to the point where I can mentally complete a build before wading in. Very much looking forward to the next step.
Richie
-
Yes mentally building something is in my experience, an important step as it helps to avoid the worst of the problems. The fuselage is very well made indeed.
Stephen.
-
Does Finland have a digital archive of sorts, in the same way as Sweden&Norway (digitalmuseum.se /no)?
Hi! Thanks... unfortunately there´s no actual digital archives of Finnish aviation photos of the earlier days. There´s a proper digital archive SA-kuvat, including a great amount of aviation photos, but they are exclusively from 1939-1945. Understandably the war years seem to have the priority over any other era. But there has been talk of including the pre-war years as well, but unfortunately it isn´t ready yet. But they are working on it right now, I have heard...
cheers, Skyhook
-
I haven’t forgotten this, but I am trying to finish some older projects and play time is limited.
Skyhook’s photo of the crashed machine has made me reconsider though. The two white sticks sticking out from the broken aft section must be tubes. Wooden frame would not have plastically deformed so nicely, it would have splintered and broken clear off, wouldn’t it? I’m considering replacing the internal frame work with tubes. The wood wouldn’t be wasted - it’s based on older Friedrichshafen and could partially be reused anyway.
-
Skyhook’s photo of the crashed machine has made me reconsider though. The two white sticks sticking out from the broken aft section must be tubes. Wooden frame would not have plastically deformed so nicely, it would have splintered and broken clear off, wouldn’t it? I’m considering replacing the internal frame work with tubes. The wood wouldn’t be wasted - it’s based on older Friedrichshafen and could partially be reused anyway.
Hi! It really could be... there seems not to be the usual splintering of a wooden spar. I have another one of the same crash...
cheers, Skyhook
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51568073942_390dd05fee_k.jpg)] (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2myTRM9)
-
Progress will be slow as I’m having some other builds in parallel, but I’ve done some progress.
Steering wheel was concocted from scrap wires and styrene rod. Seen also is the antenna reel which I made from suitable PE propeller bosses and a real coil of copper wire (thin but somewhat too thick for scale):
(https://i.imgur.com/uXkVgbK.jpg)
The IP was made by poling holes with a hot needle and painting. The needle hole will get a rim which simulated the instrument decently. White styrene rod was then simply put in these holes with black marks scratched with a knife to hint of details.
I could not figure out which radio was used, but I’ve assumed it was Fr m/20 - the next model was m/23 so that could also have been a possibility in 1924/25, but I doubt these machines would have been first in line to get a new radio. Anyway, I’m still unsure where to place the antenna reel - front, right, left or back?
Control wires were added, guestimate based on other models I’ve seen. There fuel tubes rubbing on the port side to the fuel tank behind the observer.
The comfy cushion for the pilot was my first attempt following the the excellent tutorial found on this site. I skipped the buttons, leaving that for 1/32 people. I’ve never been satisfied with a cushion till now, so my thanks for the guide!
The forlorn antenna reel is left to be installed, as are some radio wires.
(https://i.imgur.com/iDWTemo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ydWeDyP.jpg)
-
Wonderful job on the details !
Alexis
-
Very nice work on the cockpit...really interesting subject! Well done.
Cheers,
Ernie :)
-
Super cockpit details. With reference to the radio and reel position, if you do not have any references to contradict your choice, I seriously doubt whether anyone else does either, so go with what you think is most likely. Most (all?) other observers are unlikely to know either!
Stephen.
-
Wonderful work and so many details, really inspiring.
Bye,Manni
-
Great job on the interior.
And the belated thanks for your answer related to the steel interior structure.
-
Your interior looks Awesome!
RAGIII
-
Thanks, guys!
I let the radio move over a bit and put the reel right next to it. Mostly because it was the easiest thing to do and it will be seen there.
Although I like making cockpits I’m happy to finally be able to close the fuselage and move on to the even more fun bits.
(https://i.imgur.com/MMmFRQQ.jpg)
-
This is incredible for 1/72, looks more like 1/48!
Alan
-
Incredible job on this! Just lovely...Dan
-
Hi!
Actually the Finnish Air Force Museum has a sort of digital photo archive now! Here,s the link to FF section, i hope it can be opened also from outside Finland... it is actually a shared google drive folder, so i think it should open allright. If you need any info on individual photos, just let me know...
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1Xg-zNhvtnns2CRwqUoKUGCbvq9IazmL_/1Mgpweq57h4xmZa7-l9Fq5erShAq5m_-h/1OWzvT0aOWH5_TZWatgLlg-yyrlGaQv74/1wiJt2CWrovwadmfvwqwnJqk5R9oGMR4d?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a (https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1Xg-zNhvtnns2CRwqUoKUGCbvq9IazmL_/1Mgpweq57h4xmZa7-l9Fq5erShAq5m_-h/1OWzvT0aOWH5_TZWatgLlg-yyrlGaQv74/1wiJt2CWrovwadmfvwqwnJqk5R9oGMR4d?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a)
Cheers, Skyhook
-
Apologies for not responding, gents. Wished there was a notification system - I hadn’t noticed anyone posted. Many thanks for that link, seems to be plenty of fine pictures. It works on mobile, but I can barely see small stuff so I’ll open it on the comp to savour them better.
I came back to say I haven’t abandoned it, but it’s my ”backup project”, which I fiddle with only occasionally. Strugglef a bit with the top of the cowling, with a few failed moulds. Eventually I just choose one semi-good, but since it was slightly too small I glued two thin sheets on top of it and formed them by dipping in hot water. They do look a bit dented, but that’s ok because the original does too.
The observer’s section was built up and sanded to shape instead. Coamings by milliput. The rear top cover is a single piece of sheet, scored to mark the longeron locations. The three top pieces before added:
(https://i.imgur.com/dhT4NPg.jpgm)
Needs some filling and detailing, but happy I passed that hurdle. Ought to be easier from here.
(https://i.imgur.com/3jOoolI.jpg)
-
I'm happy to see you are back and working on the Friedrichshafen again.
I think you have made wonderful progress!
Willem
-
It's a brilliant 'back up' model! I'm enjoying this build and very glad to see it hasn't been abandoned.
Richie
-
Super scratch building here. The upper decking looks very good indeed - hardly any sign of filler and what there is will readily disappear under a coat or two of paint!
So pleased to see this update.
Stephen.
-
That is looking awesome!
RAGIII