forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com

WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Hints and Tips/Questions about modeling => Topic started by: WarrenD on December 30, 2012, 02:36:52 AM

Title: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: WarrenD on December 30, 2012, 02:36:52 AM
An earlier post today featuring Jim Landon's beautiful Salmson along with some recent posts of new products got me to thinking about something again that has been brought up elsewhere and I was wondering what the thoughts were of the community here.

At what point do we cease to be scale modelers and become mere kit assemblers?  At what point do we let someone else do our work for us in the form of turnbuckles, decals, seatbelts, valve springs, etc., etc. Do not misunderstand me, I'm not pointing an accusing finger at any modeler or manufacturer at all, nothing of the sort. However, I remember this came up once a few years ago when an aftermarket item came out, and I thought it fell into the "letting someone else do it for you" camp. A modeling friend pointed out to me that at one time he had to hand paint ALL of his markings on his a/c because at that time, and in his country, no decals were available. His comment really got me to thinking about this. Where do we, or where do you draw the line?  At what point would you sit there and say "no" to an item feeling that you should do that yourself?

I freely confess to being a "kit assembler" and not a very good one at that. I'd love to be a "real" modeler, but I'm not sure I have the time and talent/skill to develop into one.

Warren
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: rhallinger on December 30, 2012, 04:19:50 AM
Your points are interesting Warren.  I guess it depends on one's personal goals.  Jim Landon's Salmson is indeed beautiful and an impressive achievement, but I believe he stated that it took four years to complete.  That's fine if you are satisfied simply with the joy and achievement of the building process and/or are only interested in a few aircraft models.  On the other hand, if you want a collection of many aircraft types, time would probably not allow such dedication to detail and original fabrication.

Time is the real rub, I believe.  I am sure I could, with enough practice, successfully make spoked wheels in 1/32 by one of the methods described on this forum.  However, the time saved by buying completed wheels from the new vendor posting here will be a big time savings for me.  My enjoyment comes from building, whether kits or from scratch, but I still want a collection of representative aircraft to view and enjoy also.  I like to enjoy both kits and building from scratch for types I cannot get in kit form.  I guess I don't worry too much about the philosophical end of the hobby---I think we are creating something, whether it is assembling, detailing and painting a kit, or building from raw materials.  A beautiful kit, left in the box, is really nothing more than a set of raw materials until someone applies effort, skill and inspiration to covert those raw materials to an attractive model of an aeroplane. 

Having said that, I have great respect for the skills and talents of modelers like Jim Landon, Des, Ron K and others here who can create beautiful models without a kit.  I think that much of the enjoyment in scratch building comes from puzzling out the steps and solving problems of fabrication.  We can learn much from the scratch build logs. 

Ultimately, it comes down to whatever satisfies each of us, and helps us enjoy the hobby.  That's different for each of us.  I must add, however, that for me, the sharing, learning and comaraderie of this forum make the modeling all the more enjoyable!  :D 

Interesting topic Warren!

Regards,

Bob
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: uncletony on December 30, 2012, 04:33:29 AM
The Taurus D.III intake nuts come to mind. This is a part that I think I could do a semi respectable effort duplicating, with great effort (probably copying Keith G.'s method) but it doesn't seem at all fun and I know my result would pale in comparison to the beautiful resin castings. It's a small detail, but very characteristic of the motor. It's a no brainer -- I ordered a set yesterday.

One thing is for certain -- rapid manufacturing techniques (so-called "3D printing" as we'll as a host of other technologies) are going to sweep over this hobby like a tidal wave in the next few years. The new 3D turnbuckles are a harbinger of this. I predict we will be awash in AMS parts choices like never before. Personally, I think this is great thing, but change can be scary...
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Ian from Doncaster on December 30, 2012, 05:02:27 AM
I believe that as soon as you put a drop of paint on the model the slider from kit assembly to modelling begins to move.  Components still need tidying up with sprue gate removal, gap filling, sanding etc.  Decals need to be placed correctly by the modeller/assembler, and of course in this genre there is the rigging.

We all have varying degrees of modelling skills, some on here can scratchbuild to museum quality, and I find that inspirational.  At my level, I am happy to rig, and to attempt a few scratchbuilt details or replacement parts and to try different painting and weathering techniques.

What I do like, especially on here, is the encouragement given by each member to others, there is no divide between those with craftsman level skills and those (like me) at the amateur end, in terms of attitude to the hobby and inclusion.

Much of the satisfaction is in the build process as much as the finished article.  I guess we all like to be challenged with a kit/build.  Although WNW kits are deliberately designed that lesser experienced modellers can do a decent job with them, I do find them challenging but also forgiving.
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: WarrenD on December 30, 2012, 06:31:50 AM
Great points and posts, thanks all. As y'all have said: it all comes down to what each of us finds satisfying I suppose. As Bo said, there are some items I could make, but the amount of time combined with the sheer boredom of some processes makes me go for something else. Painting lozenge camo in 1/72nd comes to mind. I've seen some do it, and actually say there's a comforting zen to it, however doing so would put me in the nut house.
Which brings this thread to two other questions:

1) Who are we doing all of this for?  I think I'm safe in saying that all of us like and even desire the approval of our fellow modelers on this list and/or other forums. However, aside from that, and aside from pleasing ourselves, who are we doing this for?  I'm sure there are some on here that build with a contest in mind. Aside from a contest, or those that might take their kit to be displayed at a LHS, etc. about the only other folks that will see the fruit of our efforts will be family and a few close friends.

2) As Ian mentioned, there is a lot of encouragement on here, and that's a great thing. However, I know a lot of us are very hesitant to point out a mistake, or some other aspect that could stand improvement. I know I'm certainly hesitant to do so, especially since my efforts at this hobby yield almost no fruit and certainly none worthy of consumption on here or any other forum. However, I think most of us would agree that good, healthy criticism will help us all improve, I know it will help me. Do y'all think that at times we're a little too easy on our fellow modelers in this respect?
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: uncletony on December 30, 2012, 06:51:44 AM
IMO the tone here is perfect. I'd hate to see anything that discourages folks from posting their work. I think most people can read between the lines of the positive comments to grok what parts of their build aren't going over quite as well with the teeming masses.
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: lcarroll on December 30, 2012, 08:16:54 AM
Warren,
   Great topic and questions!
   My version is as follows:
#1  I draw the line on A/M additions where they no longer inprove or add to the realism of the Build. For example, a lot of Photo Etch stuff adds incredible realism to a model however the two dimensional nature of the medium detracts in many cases. If I can't add the third dimension to the PE Part I don't use it, rather I go the scratch built route. I also take the best result approach; I hand carve most of my own props simply because thety look more "real" (at least in my eyes) Same for instrument panels where I build them up on my own and use A/M components and decals as I think they look more "real". I guess what I'm saying is as long as it adds to the realism of the model and is beyond MY ability to produce, I'll use it (if I can afford it)

#2 (Who do we do this for?) The support, approval, compliments etc of my contemporaries here and elsewhere add a lot to the pleasure we all derive from the hobby and I'm no exception. In the end I do it for me; I totally enjoy looking over my little collection, and find my time at the bench as well as on-line/in the books researching tremendously relaxing and enjoyable. Here'a question though......how many of you think about where you want your stuff to go when you fade away? I've got some thoughts on that for another thread in future.

#3 (are we too easy on fellow Modellers?) I am for sure. I totally respect the inputs and products of everyone here; respect and kindness is the spirit here and I for one am too "gentle" for fear of jeapardizing that. I guess it's the old adage "if you can't say something nice then say nothing at all"! It's a bit unlike me however I truly value what we have here, and I'll bet I'm not alone!?! I know I've posted things that were in error, and certainly stuff that falls well below the quality of others submissions. Not once have I felt chastised or embarrassed however lots of CONSTRUCTIVE comments have been gladly recieved.

Great topic and questions.
Cheers,
Lance
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Jamo on December 30, 2012, 08:17:13 AM
Interesting discussion. I think constructive criticism can be valuable learning but only if welcomed explicitly. And on that point if any of us are open to constructive suggestions we should say so, and take the discussion to the next level. Without that, comments are just 'attaboy' stuff, which is OK for encouragement and support, but misses the opportunity to build skills and lift enjoyment.
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: IanB on December 30, 2012, 11:49:48 AM
Great subject and some very thoughtful replies!
 Personally I would say that an "assembler" simply does that, with no checking of details, dimensions at all, (where I was about 2 years ago), whereas a modeller will make an effort to improve the kit if necessary, by whatever means (scratchbuilding, PE etc) and trying to produce a "miniature replica" to whatever standards he or she works to.
 I only build in 1:72 and there are some who put in detail I would neither dream of, nor be capable of. Some of that is over and above what I personally feel is necessary, but I still welcome, indeed look forward to, positive feedback and suggestions on how to improve my work. I certainly enjoy reading positive comments about my work, it lets me know I'm on the right track... but at the same time I appreciate any constructive criticism that will enable me to improve my next effort.

Ian
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: WarrenD on December 30, 2012, 12:23:36 PM
Thanks for all of your responses everyone. I was very, very hesitant to start this thread for fear of being piled on as a "blue meanie". It's just a hobby, granted, and right now I have a headache from looking through a magnifier and trying to drill holes for pushrods and an ignition harness for an off-topic radial engine in 1/72nd scale.  :(  The tmep outside is in the teens (F), so I think it's time for a hot-buttered rum.

Warren
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: rhallinger on December 30, 2012, 10:14:24 PM
That hot-buttered rum sounds like an excellent choice Warren!  Yet another way to enhance the hobby. ;)

I tend to agree that we go easy on criticism here, but on balance I think that is a good thing.  We all know the weaknesses in our techniques and flaws in our models, so I think we probably don't need to have them pointed out.  However, sometimes we just forget or miss something, and the reminder/query can be helpful.  Also, if something doesn't look quite right, sometimes a question about the technique employed can lead to helpful suggestions on alternate ways to achieve a particular objective, e.g., woodgrain finish, Fokker streaking or rib shading.  I have learned so much, and I believe have much improved my modeling, just from asking questions and hearing about different techniques here in the last 10 months.

Sometimes we also make personal choices about models.  Chris Johnson noted today over in Completed Models that he left the MG on the observer's cockpit of his LVG, even though it wasn't supposed to be there on the prototype, simply because he thought it added interest and looked cool.  I applaud that choice, and agree that it looks great!  I also appreciate that nobody has yet pointed out that I did not modify the cockpit opening on my WNW Pup night trainer per Pheon's instructions.  This was a personal strategic choice, since I was building the model for my adult daughter, who didn't really care about this detail, and I wanted to finish the build as quickly as possible to get back to my 2-seater Group Build project.  I don't think that the "incorrect" cockpit opening detracts at all from the overall impression of the model.  However, that's a personal choice I can live with.  I know there are other items on a given model that would drive me crazy just knowing they were there, even if nobody else noticed.

In any event, I appreciate the absence of nitpicking on this forum.  There seems to be a sensitivity here to helping people improve there skills and sharing information and helpful hints in a positive way.  I think Uncle Tony got it right--the tone here is good, and we can all read between the lines pretty well. 

I find it so interesting that many folks arrive here with the same general story (like me): built WWI aircraft models as a kid, went through a decades-long modeling hiatus with young adulthood, marriage, family and/or career, and are now returning to the hobby.  The friendly encouragement of this forum is such a help in that situation, and I truly appreciae it.

Well, I've rambled on long enough.  Happy modeling my friends! :D

Regards,

Bob
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: GAJouette on December 30, 2012, 10:41:54 PM
  Warren,
Blue Meanie,now that dating yourself my old friend. Been watching Yellow Submarine on DVD lately. But seriously I really believe there's no need to worry about starting a thread like this one especially with our excellent membership. I'm impressed with all the outstanding replies which show again and again just how tight we are even when we have differing opinions.

 To add to the discussion I like to add whether you consider yourself an assembler or modeler really doen't matter. After it's all said and done this hobby of ours is about having fun first and foremost everything else is secondary. To Bob's point, I believe as a whole everyone here practises whether realizing it or not a sort of modeler version of "The Golden Rule". Personally I can't think of a better way to operate myself.

Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Chris Johnson on December 31, 2012, 02:28:46 AM
Encouragement means a lot to me. I don't have the artistic talent, dexterity, or patience to achieve much of what is on display here, but I like to give it the old college try. If it doesn't work out, I'll be telling you all about it and showing you the proof in the images. I have a thick hide so if someone wants to offer constructive criticism, I welcome it but it has to be from those who also build models and post them for all to see.

I'll happily take praise from anyone who wants to give it (who wouldn't!) but if you want to criticize what I've done, you better have the sand to display your work too. That's what I like about this forum. The guys who offer me suggestions for improvement also post their models for all to see, so I know they're builders, and not the know-it-alls who populate so many other forums, but never show their work.

The great thing about this forum is that there's room for both the assembler and master modeller because the membership that has gravitated here is free from the arrogance, rudeness, and bad manners so prevalent on other forums. Lets keep it that way.

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: uncletony on December 31, 2012, 02:38:36 AM
The great thing about this forum is that there's room for both the assembler and master modeller because the membership that has gravitated here is free from the arrogance, rudeness, and bad manners so prevalent on other forums. Lets keep it that way.

Yes please, +1

In marketing there is something called the "platinum rule" -- treat others the way they wish to be treated -- but this requires mind reading abilities most of us do not possess. Therefore, let's stick with the golden rule as Gregory suggests.  ;)

Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Modelnut on December 31, 2012, 04:53:13 AM
My phylosophy is just do it to your best ability til it ain't fun no more. :)
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: dirk on December 31, 2012, 06:12:15 AM
Hi Bob,

thanks for the topics and thanks to everyone for this interesting discussion. In my opinion, we came to the point, that our hobby found its own industry due to increasing demand. One point might be that a lot of people got increasing interest on our subjects due to companies like Wingnut Wings. Its our credit that a lot of people try their best on those kits while seeing those finished aircrafts. Take for example Richard Alexanders Customer Models topic on Wingnuts side or Bretts Hyperscale Gallery and you know what I mean. Lots of people with business interests feel that there is a market for what we are doing for decades and so aftermarket products are thrown into the market for prices that double the cost for the kit easily. As we got older our income increases proportional to our skills and standards. And on the other hand: As more as we are willling to pay for turnbuckles, engine parts and seatbelts, the more our skills are no longer the only way to turn a kit into a superdetailled replica.

So that's the paradox we have to face and I assume that there will be the point, when low-cost, selfmade solutions will be a attitude and league on its own... So do we need a change in our work ethic and don't we organize ourselfs in forums like this to discuss topics like this?

With kind regards,

Dirk
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Des on December 31, 2012, 11:48:30 AM
I would like to thank everyone for approaching this topic in a very respectful and courteous manner, the responses posted here reflect the maturity and compassion possessed by our members and highlights the comradery this forum harbours. The reaction to the initial post makes me feel very proud and overwhelmed by the caring and honest nature that has been exhibited by our members.

Des -  Administrator. 
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: WarrenD on December 31, 2012, 10:36:46 PM
I would like to thank everyone for approaching this topic in a very respectful and courteous manner, the responses posted here reflect the maturity and compassion possessed by our members and highlights the comradery this forum harbours. The reaction to the initial post makes me feel very proud and overwhelmed by the caring and honest nature that has been exhibited by our members.

Des -  Administrator.

Des,
       I am pleased too Des. I was hesitant, fearful that folks would think I was trying to be a troll which was not the case, just trying to promote discussion about our hobby and our views on our little bit of insanity out here on the fringe.

Warren
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: kornbeef on January 01, 2013, 04:55:33 AM
I never got involved purely because I think theres no difference, we all buld for pleasure, all want to share and encourage one another, Even as a seasoned builder I still pick up pointers from the new and less adventurous amongst our ranks.

Modelling is modelling, I/we/you build to a level you are happy/comfortable with and some don't wish to spend hours adding wotnts and dingdongs. But we should all encourage oneanother. I know those that can take critisism and pointers well and others wher I personally wouldnt say if I knew something was amiss, Not unless the person posted saying as I do All comments and critisms happily recieved.

All spelling mistakes completely unintentional too  ;D

Anyway heres to a wonderful years modelling ahead no matter what level.

Keith
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Ian from Doncaster on January 01, 2013, 05:20:01 AM
I also think individually we are our own biggest critics, so we don't necessarily need faults pointing out.  For example, I may show a pic and say I'm not 100% happy with the paint job, whilst at the same time requesting advice from the forum.  In that way I can receive criticism without feeling criticised.

I am very grateful for the willingness members have here to share techniques.  We all establish what will work best for our own circumstances and abilities, but the advice here gives more options and opportunities to learn.
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: skeeterbuck on January 08, 2013, 12:07:49 AM
I look at our hobby as a way to relax and get away from the stress that normal modern living imposes on us. I build to satisfy myself. In my local modeling chapter of the IMPS. Some of the members build kits with the goal of entering them in contest to win awards. That's how they get satisfaction from the hobby. For me that just adds additional stress to the hobby that I just as well avoid.

Are they taking the right or wrong approach?... Am I?... I would answer "no" to both questions. Whatever way you enjoy the hobby is the right approach for you.

In reference to Scale Modeling vs. Kit Assembly, if the kit is well detailed and overall accurate I will most likely build it straight out of the box, keeping in mind that even building out of the box requires skill in getting the paint and decals applied correctly, seams filled correctly, etc. I usually will use any product that helps me build a better model. For example, In my current build, I making a pair of German MG's in 1/48 scale and rolling the jackets in PE and adding several other bits for added detail. That's about as fiddly as I will go. Any more and the relaxation turns to frustration. A little frustration is sometimes good  because it challenges us to raise our modelling skills to overcome it. Too much though can just take all the satisfaction away and that no fun at all.  :(

Chuck
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: pepperman42 on January 08, 2013, 01:52:31 AM
My New Years resolution was - as far as here is concerned - "Put my money where my mouth is"

Steve
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: Dekenba on January 08, 2013, 03:20:56 AM
Personally, I just love the AM stuff that's out there. I really enjoy putting together a package of a kit, decals, books & magazines for research and AM to add extra detail and personalise a model - Taurus, Eduard & HGW stuff abounds in my stash, I've not got a model that's not without AM.

Having said that, Des's build logs on his website show what is possible without AM - but I don't feel I have the time nor skills to match Des, so I'm quite happy to put my hands up & cheat a little bit!

And I suppose that therein lies the attraction of our hobby and how it manages to appeal to a wide range of builders & budgets. It's possible to build a show stopper straight out of the box, or make a completely unique build with oodles of AM, whatever your mood takes you.
Title: Re: Scale Modeling versus Kit Assembling
Post by: ALBATROS1234 on January 08, 2013, 03:56:58 PM
i totally see your point in your earlier post warren. i think sometimes we are to inclined to just give an attaboy when we could give more constuctive commentary. i would only do this if like jamo said the poster requests this type of comment or it was one of my close pals that ive been interacting with for many years. i personally would prefer if someone would point out an error that i had not noticed. or even suggest a different technique etc. but some guys arent as open to this. also it would be terrible to discourage the more novice modellers by what could be perceive by some as insult. so its a slippery slope but i think we basically do a decent job of helping one another out here. alot better than at other forums ive been a member of. thanks to des we have a sit dedicated to modelling ww1 aircraft exclusively. thats just great in my book.