SPAD S.XII

[Squiffy]

Evening, chaps.

Are any kits available in 72nd scale for the above?

Also, if none are available, what changes would be required to make an XIII appear as an XII? (or am I better off starting with a VII as both are available in 72nd?).

On a related note, does anyone know how the cannon in the XII operated? I mean was it fed by a magazine, or was each round loaded into the breech by hand etc?

Thanks

[IanB]

Pegasus made a 1:72 SPAD XII. It's available from Freightdog models in the UK. I don't have it in my stash so can't comment on its quality.

Ian

[uncletony]

On a related note, does anyone know how the cannon in the XII operated? I mean was it fed by a magazine, or was each round loaded into the breech by hand etc?

Thanks

The gun was a semi automatic 37mm. 12 round magazine, which I believe was fixed (no reloading in flight)

[uncletony]

hmmm "Flying Guns" contradicts what I just wrote, suggesting in the text that the gun was manually loaded...  But then there is a picture of the Puteaux cannon mounted in an Hispano Suiza block with a very prominent box magazine...

[Squiffy]

Thanks, Bo. Perhaps it was fed by a magazine but the bolt had to be pulled manually to load each round? Rather like a huge version of a Lee Enfield or similar?

[uncletony]

Thanks, Bo. Perhaps it was fed by a magazine but the bolt had to be pulled manually to load each round? Rather like a huge version of a Lee Enfield or similar?

Well, I am not an expert on this by any means, my slim knowledge comes from what I read in Flying Guns by Tony Williams. There is a section on French experiments mounting cannon to aircraft, and the several weapons available are described. The confusion is over which one was fitted to the S.XII. The 37mm SAMC was definitely a semi-automatic weapon. This is what Wikipedia says was fitted. However it was only developed very late in the war and Williams seems to suggest it was never used operationally on the S.XII (or on anything else).

There were two other 37mm cannons available to the French. Both were derived from naval weapons and were hand loaded. The M1885 was a low velocity short barreled weapon modified with a smooth bore to fire canister shot ammunition. The M1902 was a conventional rifled bore, firing conventional ammunition. It sounds like maybe both were tried on the S.XII -- it's unclear to me.

[Squiffy]

I've been having a bit of a search myself.

Fighters 1914-1919, by Kenneth Munson says "a 37mm Hotchkiss cannon" The Wiki entry on the SPAD XII says "The gun chosen for the SPAD XII was not the old Hotchkiss cannon but a new 37 mm Semi Automatique Moteur Canon (SAMC), built by Puteaux, for which 12 shots were carried".

The entry in Wiki for this Puteaux cannon says "It was also used on aircraft such as the Beardmore W.B.V and the Salmson-Moineau. Fighter ace René Fonck used a 37mm mle.1916 on a SPAD S.XII."

So, if that is the one, it doesn't look to have any kind of magazine or be automatic. 

[IanB]

"French Aircraft of the First World War" by Davilla & Soltan states the following:

Armament was a 12 round 37mm S.A.M.C. and a 7.7mm Vickers. The cannon was hand loaded through the breach after each shot. The breach extended into the cockpit, between the pilot's knees, thus preventing a control column from being used. A control system similar to Deperdussin was thus used.

Ian

[uncletony]

"French Aircraft of the First World War" by Davilla & Soltan states the following:

Armament was a 12 round 37mm S.A.M.C. and a 7.7mm Vickers. The cannon was hand loaded through the breach after each shot. The breach extended into the cockpit, between the pilot's knees, thus preventing a control column from being used. A control system similar to Deperdussin was thus used.

Ian

But that on its face makes no sense... A 12 round cannon that is manually (breech) loaded?

[Squiffy]

And why call it semi-automatic if each round is loaded by hand?

 

Pegasus made a 1:72 SPAD XII. It's available from Freightdog models in the UK. I don't have it in my stash so can't comment on its quality.

Ian

Thanks, Ian. Is that an ordinary injection-moulded plastic kit, or something fancy like resin? I'm not sure I want to tackle anything fancy just yet.

[uncletony]

Repeating myself here I know but -- The question is which gun was actually fitted-- the particulars of the guns available are known. The M1885 was an old fashioned naval type cannon that was breech loaded via a door in the back. The M1902 was originally designed as a training weapon to be fitted inside larger naval guns; it likewise was breech loaded and had no recoil mechanism of its own.

The SAMC semi automatic cannon designed to fit in the v of the engine block did not see service according to Williams ...

[IanB]

The book I quoted also states that the XII was designed to fire a cannon through the hollow hub of the Hispano engine, so maybe it was a different cannon....However the research of this book appears to be very thorough...

@Squiffy - the Pegasus kit is short run injection. The mods to the XII listed in the the above referance are as follows:

single Vickers moved to starboard (same position as the later XIII's starboard gun)
deletion of cylinder fairings over the engine
more streamlined cowling
increased wing area (20.2sq m from the XII's 17.85sq m.) Span increased from 7.822m to 8.00m
positive wing stagger
rounded wing tips
and the aforementioned Déperdussin-style control frame and wheel

Hope this helps,

Ian

[Squiffy]

Thanks, Ian.

[davecww1]

Here are some photos that come from the French Musée de l'air.  It shows the engine with cannon mounted as well as a separate cannon, although the separate one does not seem to have exactly the same breech.  Also I have a drawing from a French Technical manual that shows the position of the cannon and engine, as well as the steering wheel.  After laying the drawing over 1/48 scale plans from Windsock the drawings are not to scale, but there are dimensions in CM on the drawings so they could be very useful...
Dave

[davecww1]

So there is a photo of the cannon, no 12 round magazine on that baby!  Perhaps there was a rack or two inside the SPAD XII that allowed 12 rounds to be carried, each having to be loaded in manually while flying with the Deperdussin control wheel... probably why so few were made and only issued to high scoring aces...
Dave