Author Topic: Just some Thoughts  (Read 4195 times)

Michael Scarborough

  • Guest
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 04:12:47 AM »
, the main thing you have fun in the matter.

Bravo!! Most important thing...have fun....it is, after all, a relaxing hobby!

Offline Dirigible-Al

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2015, 04:17:41 AM »
I agree with what has been said so far but would like to add one point which is close to heart. Not just in kit building but generally in most hobbies where there is a community there is often one or more people that overwhelm a beginner with 'must doos' or 'must haves'. On another forum what I believe was a young lad put in a post saying he had just acquired a 1/32 kit of something I cannot remember and asked for advice on what he needed to build it and he was on a budget. I replied to his post stating this can be a really cheap hobby if you want it to be and gave a few basic things needed for a kit and included in the advice using a few things that would already be in a household and would save him purchasing anything more. What then happened was he got a torrent of advice from other members telling him to get all sorts of stuff much of which I don't even have after doing this hobby since I was about 5. Needless to say we heard no more of him. I could tell you similar stories of other hobbies but they would make this post too long and I am sure you get the point. I know this is a really easy going site and no-one would intently upset or discourage anyone but the point of this is please do not kill anyone with kindness, we really want new people to take this hobby up and it can be fun and rewarding at any level.
Alan.
I heard that it all started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry!

Offline lone modeller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5343
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2015, 04:22:51 AM »
Jorg,

Thank you for posting this blog. If you care to look up my introduction you will read that I described myself as an "average or below average" modeller, which is how I considered myself at the time. I had picked up modelling again after a lapse of over 30 years and had attempted a couple of kits to see if I wanted to revive an old interest. Des' reply says it all - it really is true that this site welcomes with open arms all modellers whatever their skill or confidence level may be. I have also read many comments from modellers which make good constructive suggestions about how to tackle a particular issue or problem with a given model, and more general hints and tips - all of which can help individuals to improve their skills and their models.

There are however a couple of things that any beginner might like to consider which I honestly think apply to all modellers regardless of their skills.

The first is that very often we are our own worst critics: we can see what others cannot and we worry about those things unnecessarily. No model is perfect, nor will it ever be, but sometimes that is difficult to take on board. What I have found in the 3 1/2 years that I have been modelling again is that sometimes my ambitions exceed my levels of skill. Then I have to ask myself why am I doing this? Is it to give me a sense of achievement or is it because I have the naive belief that I should always be doing something better than the last time? Sometimes I am a beginner too, such as when I try out a new idea or technique: then I try to share my experiences with members of this forum and in almost all cases I receive constructive comments describing/explaining how to do the same thing differently or better. This is a truly generous and positive forum, with many well informed and skilled individuals but no "experts". (Definition of an "expert": ex is an unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure). I do not consider myself to be either as well informed or skilled as many on this site, but I can live with that.

Secondly not every modeller is good at explaining what they do - I write this as a retired teacher and I know that trying to describe/explain something so that all will understand is not as easy as it may seem. Therefore when a modeller asks for help/guidance/constructive criticism not everyone will feel able to provide a suitable answer. If you have a question or want some help or advice, just put it in a post and sit back and be pleasantly surprised by the responses that you will receive. In short do not be frightened to post your builds and models because the very act of posting will help you to boost your confidence. Even if something goes wrong post that too because the person who never made a mistake never made anything. It takes courage to admit to one's mistakes, especially in public, but as I used to (repeatedly) tell my students, it is by making mistakes that we learn the most.

A third point which I would make which I also learned as both a student and teacher is that it is so easy to underestimate what we are capable of doing and difficult to be consciously aware of how much we have learned. I used to build conversions (kit bashes) but have since changed to scratch building. I also enjoy building pushers types. Although there are times when I find conversions or scratch builds challenging, I have never considered them to be especially difficult. However when I restarted modelling I did not consider for a moment that I would ever be able to scratch build a model, let alone a pusher or multi-engined type. Now I look at a picture or drawing and think do I want to build one of those, not can I? The key to improvement in anything is small steps not giant leaps - just try out something new now and again when the urge takes you and not necessarily because you have to - you may surprise yourself as to what you can do. Skills once learned are never forgotten, they just need practice to restore and improve.

I want to echo want Jorg has written: "beginners" please show us what you are doing - you can only gain from the experience and so can the rest of us. I know that this is true because I have experienced it at first hand.

Stephen.   

Offline Oeli

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2015, 04:50:13 AM »
Hi,

@Alan
Of course you are right that one sometimes gets a lot of advice and it can overwhelm one. However, I find that you already have to expect that you get more than one answer. Such a forum can have 1,000 or more members. I find rather an a bit more friendliness as, "everything has already been posted, use the search function" ;)

And Stephen, you speak to me from the soul.
Thank you for your detailed explanation. One can see that you were once a teacher.  ;)

kindly regards

Jörg
Normality is a beautiful paved road, but it grow no flowers on her.

Offline Squiffy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 602
  • Something up with my banter, chaps?
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2015, 09:33:52 PM »
This is an interesting topic. When I joined this forum, around 18 months ago, I hadn't built a model aeroplane for over 30 years and had never rigged a model before, so I was very much a beginner.

I learned how to rig a plane, in 72nd and 32nd scales, from members of the forum and after around 60 models I'm no longer a beginner but I'm still learning new things all the time.

People on here are always helpful and encouraging and I wouldn't like to see an area where "experts" criticise the work of others, even if it is constructive criticism. I think it could cause a split, a sort of "them and us" mentality.

Offline uncletony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
    • Aircraft In Pixels
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2015, 10:51:24 PM »
I guess all I will add is if you are looking for a Shark Tank type experience, this might not be the right place. Somehow Des has managed to build a corner of the internet where information is shared in a friendly and respectful way, quite an unusual and remarkable fealt. I wouldn't want to see that change for anything. If we err on the side of excessive back-slapping, so be it.

Offline skeeterbuck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2015, 10:52:02 PM »
Two thoughts: Does Jörg want to rename the post so more newcomers to our little world will be sure to see it?

Secondly, I am all for a Brutally Honest section on this website, as long as those folks weighing in have the credentials to do so. "Cause I saw it on another forum", doesn't count as a credential. We have among us some very serious aficionados of WWI aero history as well as some of the finest model builders I have ever encountered. I trust these people to give me an honest opinion and welcome it, as I am seriously devoted to becoming a better researcher and model builder. But the self proclaimed Experten, the likes of which closed down the Aerodrome model building forum, and which now so populate Hyperscale, can stay mum.

Just my two cents worth.....

Unfortunately Michael, being a forum format, that replies would be open to anyone regardless of their "expertise". That said, keep in mind that it would be up to the modeler to decide to start a thread in this section and weather to "use" or "disregard" the input from the so called experts.

 I offered the "brutally honest" concept as an idea that could possibly help improve the forum in general as well as the individual modeller. From my experience the replies to these critique threads are usually very positive and helpful. I have never seen one that degraded the model or the modeller's abilities.

Chuck

Offline skeeterbuck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2015, 11:04:54 PM »
I guess all I will add is if you are looking for a Shark Tank type experience, this might not be the right place. Somehow Des has managed to build a corner of the internet where information is shared in a friendly and respectful way, quite an unusual and remarkable fealt. I wouldn't want to see that change for anything. If we err on the side of excessive back-slapping, so be it.

Bo, I couldn't agree more.  Do you think it would really turn out that way? Would any member here really put down another modeller's work like that?  :-\

I think that maybe many of the older members that are familiar with the "Aerodrome Meltdown" were dealing more with members that were steeped in the historical aspect. Here it's more of a "Modeler's Aspect".  :)

Chuck




Offline uncletony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
    • Aircraft In Pixels
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 12:09:08 AM »
I guess all I will add is if you are looking for a Shark Tank type experience, this might not be the right place. Somehow Des has managed to build a corner of the internet where information is shared in a friendly and respectful way, quite an unusual and remarkable fealt. I wouldn't want to see that change for anything. If we err on the side of excessive back-slapping, so be it.

Bo, I couldn't agree more.  Do you think it would really turn out that way? Would any member here really put down another modeller's work like that?  :-\

I think that maybe many of the older members that are familiar with the "Aerodrome Meltdown" were dealing more with members that were steeped in the historical aspect. Here it's more of a "Modeler's Aspect".  :)

Chuck

I honestly have no idea whether it would or would not. I am just going on the observation that no one thing can be everything to everybody.  This place had a certain gentleness about it that I think most of us here rather appreciate. I understand that that vibe might not suit everybody.

I sat through a lot of group critiques in art school. I can remember that many times they ended in (real) tears for someone. "Well, you asked for it!..wait...come back..."

That said, posters asking for specific constructive here criticism will often receive it. Myself I try to offer advice in the few areas that I am knowledgeable about. Otherwise when I see something that I think merits sincere praise, I'll comment. Beyond that I try to keep my mouth shut.

Offline Malteser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 12:30:35 AM »
Thank you for your post Jörg.

As a very inexperienced beginner I can identify only too well with what you are saying.

However, all the replies are supportive and encouraging which is heartening.

Other 'niche' hobby forums I have frequented tend to be biased towards the more gifted and experienced members when it comes to demonstrating or talking about their work.  This can be off-putting.  I used to follow both a botanical illustration forum and a violin making forum for a while but the very high quality of the work and the vast experience of the contributors had the effect of demoralising me from ever really getting going.  They formed quite a tight clique.

This forum certainly seems different as experts are willing to share failures and also share techniques in addition to some excellent step-wise builds.  I might just venture to post some photos if i ever have anything much to share  ;)

Suzanne

Offline RAGIII

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18921
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 12:34:59 AM »
Two thoughts: Does Jörg want to rename the post so more newcomers to our little world will be sure to see it?

Secondly, I am all for a Brutally Honest section on this website, as long as those folks weighing in have the credentials to do so. "Cause I saw it on another forum", doesn't count as a credential. We have among us some very serious aficionados of WWI aero history as well as some of the finest model builders I have ever encountered. I trust these people to give me an honest opinion and welcome it, as I am seriously devoted to becoming a better researcher and model builder. But the self proclaimed Experten, the likes of which closed down the Aerodrome model building forum, and which now so populate Hyperscale, can stay mum.

Just my two cents worth.....

I agree and would like to add, since Micheal mentioned the old 'drome, that I stumbled upon the Aerodrome when I first came back to the hobby seven years ago and had the great good fortune to meet the likes of Beza (Des), Umflaumotor (Bertl), Uncle Tony (Bo), Przemo, Gregory, Jamo, Carpo, Brad and many other very talented modelers who gently guided me and others to a point where I was confident enough to display my work.  As Des has pointed out, we were all beginners once, many of us not so long ago, and we can only hone ours skills through practice and that includes photographing and posting our work.  I look forward to watching your projects come to life on this forum, Jorg, and don't be shy.  We are all our own worst critics and I'm sure that the models that you produce are far better than you think they are.
Cheers,
Bud

Amazingly I agree with Bud on this one  ::) In My opinion we have a pretty well rounded selection of modeling TALENT. I have said before that I represent the Mediocrity. I am a modeler with average talent that knows his limitations. I have also said I think my place here is to show work that is achievable to others, especially beginners. My techniques are simple and basic. A NEWBIE can look at my work and think, I can do that! As for the "Brutally" Honest section, I am not in favor. I wonder how one can be Brutal and constructive at the same time. To me it is simple. If you want Help, Criticism, Opinions, etc. Ask in your build log. I often ask for thoughts on colors, or techniques. I do however know where my faults lie, I just don't let them stop me from posting  ;D Filling and sanding is one such issue. IMHO, it is the lack of Brutality that makes this forum great. Ernie has commented on his progression and I can think of others like Patrick that have really progressed by asking questions and looking at build logs, and are now using techniques and producing Models that I envy! So as others have said, Please show your builds in progress NO MATTER WHAT LEVEL you THINK you are on. All will appreciate them, and many will learn from them! Don't be shy!
RAGIII

PS: I have also, on a couple of occasions received Private Messages that addressed something I had missed. One was regarding silvering in a tail code on my Doomed SE5a project. The message was polite and constructive, and was appreciated. I had actually noticed the issue when I posted the photos but was grateful that someone was interested enough and took the time to point out the issue in a constructive way. This was done in a PM in order to spare me any potential embarrassment !


« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 01:01:13 AM by RAGIII »
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline Pgtaylorart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1480
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 02:52:41 AM »
I agree with what Rick (RAGIII) has said about the Brutally Honest aspect of things. It is a good solution for those who want more of the "art school" style of critique to either ask for that on your own thread, or ask for it in a private PM. There is a common response in everyone's answers that Des has created such a friendly and welcoming forum. It would be very unfortunate to do anything to change that vibe.

George

Offline uncletony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4349
    • Aircraft In Pixels
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 08:27:46 AM »
an unfortunate typo in my last response:


  This place had a certain gentleness about it that I think most of us here rather appreciate.

Of course I meant this to be has, as in the present tense, as in that gentleness still (remarkably) exists...

Offline lcarroll

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2015, 08:45:31 AM »
  There is a common response in everyone's answers that Des has created such a friendly and welcoming forum. It would be very unfortunate to do anything to change that vibe.

 This place had a certain gentleness about it that I think most of us here rather appreciate


    I've been absorbing this commentary from the beginning, some very well thought out and well presented thoughts here and more. My thoughts are well represented by the two quotes above, with the addition of a comment of my own. I believe it's all about "tone", constructive criticism (better called assessment) is OK when solicited and when presented in a non critical manner. I'd add the caveat that the first factor to be taken into strong consideration must be the subject's experience level; my best efforts may be OK in my eyes however when measured against some of our wonderfully impressive "experten" they are very much open to criticism!
   Bottom line, is the Modeller having "fun", if so were doing things right and so is he/she!
   This Forum is a special place, it's nice to see that everyone seems unanimous in wanting to keep it that way.....
Cheers,
Lance

UPDATE
Of course I meant this to be has, as in the present tense, as in that gentleness still (remarkably) exists...
     Believe it or not, Bo, I missed it, I read "has"!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:56:29 AM by lcarroll »

Offline Ernie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3961
  • "Once more into the breach"
Re: Just some Thoughts
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2015, 08:54:21 AM »

   This Forum is a special place, it's nice to see that everyone seems unanimous in wanting to keep it that way.....
Cheers,
Lance

I completely agree Lance.  The atmosphere on this forum never gets old. :D

Cheers,
Ernie :)

The new old guy, take two...