forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Hints and Tips/Questions about modeling => Topic started by: FokkerFodder on January 15, 2014, 04:40:27 PM
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Hi
The range of products can be overwhelming for a newbie and I'm doing some research on finishes (I'm not always happy with what I've tried to date) and seek the views of others. The Alclad range of Klear Kotes looks promising and seems that it can be used with acraylics/enemals/lacquers, comes in a range of finishes and doesn't require thinning.... too good to be true? Have others on the forum used this product?
Any feedback appreciated.
cheers
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I use them they are part of my arsenal, they are good. They are acrylic lacquer. All precautions using lacquer based products apply. Test on an analogue first if you are not sure how it will behave & be sure to have adequate ventilation, respirator etc. Unlikely thst you would want to, but do bot mix them with Alclad metallics in the pot, you will get a weird mess. (Don't ask how I know.)
More discussion here:
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234951583-alclad-clear-kote-over-acrylic-and-klear/
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I used the semi gloss over Misterkit acrylics and it never cured. I ended up stripping it off after waiting a couple of weeks for it to dry. All of the underlying layers of Alclad primer, Misterkit paints, and Future had been on for weeks when I applied the Klear Kote. I won't be using it again.
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I used the semi gloss over Misterkit acrylics and it never cured. I ended up stripping it off after waiting a couple of weeks for it to dry. All of the underlying layers of Alclad primer, Misterkit paints, and Future had been on for weeks when I applied the Klear Kote. I won't be using it again.
Actually I had exactly this problem too - it does dry down to a lovely flat matt, but it somehow stays "green"! - and if you handle it much thereafter it just seems to turn into a sticky mess. And again here I had to strip the whole lot off ... it's made me a bit "gunshy" of it as a product. I was waiting for an opportune moment to ask what it was I was doing wrong.
I do happily use it as a spot finishing product but not sure how I'm going to solve any large area finishes yet. Lot's of pic's of beautifully matt finished models abound on these pages - just how are they done?
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Other popular options to try are:
Testors Dullcote (rattle can)
Tamiya Flat Paste mixed with Future / Klear (about 1:4, but experiment, too much paste will cause the finish to be opaque)
I'm sure others have other faves
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I use Johnson's Klear, brushed on. Then if I want a more satin finish I use Humbrol Satincote spray, or the mattcote liquid mixed with humbrol thinner for smaller areas.
I tried diluting the mattcote product once with Klear and it turned into a sludgy mess - fortunately this was on an experiment on a bir of spare plastic and not on a model.
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Clears used to be a huge issue for me - I never had consistency with acrylic clears, future, nor enamels.
I started using the Model Master clear lacquers in the bottles, thinned significantly with their thinner and airbrushed and have had successful results repeatedly. Definitely need a fume extractor and mask for these though - smell is not good...
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Like Ian, I brush on Klear (here it's Klir). I tend to use as broad a square-cut brush as the situation permits, always going chord-wise on wings and along the length of the fuselage. In doing so it is really important to apply it very sparingly to avoid runs; better to go for several very thin coats.
Best wishes
Nigel
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My clear coats of choice are the Humbrol range. These are the clear coats that come in the bottle (not their little tins), they have a gloss, a satin and a matt. I always spray the product and if they need thinning I use lacquer thinners. A very good product but does take overnight to dry, to get the low sheen I like I mix 50/50 of the gloss and the matt.
Des.
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I am really glad I read this thread. I recently invested in 3 bottles of the Alclad Klear Kotes and it sounds "fraught with peril" from what I see here. I always come back to Model master Acryls, using Future as the gloss sealer and decal base and finishing it off with the Acryl Semi Gloss Clear or Matt. I've tried Micro Gloss and Micro Satin (from the good folks who make Microsol and Set) and that turned out very badly for me. Of all the steps in finishing a model the final finish coat scares me the most!
I'd like more info on the Model master Clear lacquers, do they come in gloss, semi-gloss etc? I've never seen them in the shops available to me but that doesn't mean they weren't there.
Cheers,
Lance
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I did some experiments after reading Andi and Rob's posts. I got the same results I expected -- after letting the stuff dry for an hour it seems to be completely dry and apparently cured. No problem with handling. Specifically I tried Matte over a fully cured Future coated mule part.
Not doubting your results, just curious what we are doing differently.
Environment : 70 degrees F /21 C, 30% relative humidity
pressure: 10 psi
Application: shook bottle for 1 minute, airbrush flushed (2 bowls) lacquer thinner, sprayed approximately 4 in / 10 cm from surface, applied "just wet"
Test subject is a scrap wing primed with Tamiya rattle can primer, followed by several sprayed coats of Tamiya acrylic, followed by 1 coat of sprayed Future /Klear /Klir.
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I don't know. I tried Klear Kote after reading glowing reviews on the internet, but my experience was almost identical to Andi's. The Klear Kote was dry to the touch, but when I began to handle the model, it seemed as if the heat or oils coming off my finger tips caused the Klear Kote to become tacky. I tried wearing thin cotton photo developers gloves, but the loose fibers in the gloves were sticking to (and remaining stuck in) the Klear Kote. When I tried to buff out the finger prints with micromesh, the Klear Kote rolled up like a rubber eraser. I usually airbrush at 10-12 psi, always stir the paints with a battery powered cocktail mixer, allowed at least a week for each of the underlying paint coats to dry, and I live in Southern California where the humidity rarely exceeds 50%. I used the Klear Kote during this past August when I guess the temperature may have been as high as 85 degrees F. After I stripped the Klear Kote, I resprayed with Testors semi gloss clear lacquer with no issues. I know Alclad had some quality control issues a few years ago with a bad batch of their Gloss Black primer refusing to dry and I wonder if I got a bottle out of another bad batch. I have used other Alclad products in the past and they always performed well so I was quite disappointed when the Klear Kote failed.
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Thanks Rob. I will try handling my test piece a little more vigorously and report back.
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Thanks all. Lots of interesting information here! I have ordered a matte, gloss and light satin from the Alclad range but will proceed with extreme caution! I will explore some of the other suggestsions as well.
Once again, thanks for the input.
cheers
FF
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Thanks Rob. I will try handling my test piece a little more vigorously and report back.
Bo' ....
As an addendum to the posts of yourself and Rob'. My experience was because of the resultant handling of the item, and my description that it seems to stay "green" despite appearing to be fully cured
Rob's description mirrors my own in it's entirity. I spray indoors so humidity shouldn't be a problem, but I have been using slightly higher pressures (15/20psi). Only upside to all this is that when it came time to "strip" it off - it came away easily with "White spirit/Turps substitute (of all things).
So it appears to be particularly intolerant of handling. I do have some Testers dulcote ... which works happily as a "spot" finish, but again I'm very wary of using this in a broad application.
Personally I'm lacking any experience in this department, and would be grateful of all or any advice and opinion.
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Thanks Guys, I'll be watching closely for more results/info. I'll also run a "test program" with the Alclad Products over the next week or so. Like FF I got a supply of the various finishes and thought they would be the ultimate; now I'll need to assure myself of their performance before using them on a completed model. :-\
Cheers,
Lance
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Here's my test subject alluded to earlier.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zps65389a84.jpg)
The finish feels dry, but per the problems reported above, I subjected it to some much more intense handling than I would normally. For starters, I held it tightly like this for two minutes (I could feel the plastic get warmer):
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zps06e73bf8.jpg)
Then I rubbed that area vigorously with my sweaty fingers. No effect. Next I polished the area with 5 levels of micro mesh, up to 1200 12000, where it started to achieve a slight gloss. No sign of the nasty problems reported.
Finally I applied IPA to the area - that did attack the finish, but I suspect it is because it got through to the underlying Future layer.
Once the IPA evaporated the finish, though marred, was hard again.
Observations: the finish appeared to be fully cured after 1 hour. Therefore, based on the reports above, if your finish isn't curing nearly immediately, it probably never will.
I am going to keep on using this stuff -- it really does deliver a excellent, smooth, super thin finish -- but I will be wary of it as well...
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Thanks for your efforts, Bo. I'll try your approach (after a test run on the actual containers I have) If things go "sideways" I'll let you all know.
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks for your efforts, Bo. I'll try your approach (after a test run on the actual containers I have) If things go "sideways" I'll let you all know.
Cheers,
Lance
Thanks from me too, Bo. Very helpful information.
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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This is all very useful information so I am going to make this a sticky topic.
Des.
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I only used Klear Cote once. Never again, I don't know if I did something wrong, but I just did not get on with it.
I find that a layer of Johnsons Clear to allow the decals to attach, then when dry and clean, a layer of Microsol /Flat/Satin/Gloss mixed as appropriate for the finish you want works well....
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Ian,
Can you provide any specifics on why the Klear Kote failed for you? I'm interested in trying to find anything in common with the results and applications of those of us who didn't have any luck with the product. Thanks.
I have mixed feelings about whether I want to spend the time and effort in trying to isolate what might have caused the poor results me, Andi, and now, you obtained or if I should just cut my losses and move on. I admit to being frustrated when a product works perfectly for other people and not for me.
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I have to add to the chorus of those that tried Klear Kote - I used it right out of the bottle, it went on fantastic over acrylics and looked great, yet it never seemed to cure hard. Showed prints and marks super easy.
Not sure what I did wrong but it was a mess so I moved on to try the Model Master lacquer clears....
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As promised earlier here I tried the Alclad II Klear Kote Semi Matte product on some test pieces yesterday. I normally airbrush at 22-25 psi but per the instructions cranked it down to about 18 psi and used the product direct from the bottle. I had prepared some old parts with Model Master enamel, Future, and decals in various stages to mirror my present build.
Although the instructions say a second coat can be applied after ten minutes I waited about two hours. After the second coat I left the pieces overnight, total approx. 16 hours until I got back to them this morning. Results are really great, appears totally dry and tack free, beautiful semi gloss finish with no air bubbles nor running or staining, decals are fine as are the portions pre-brushed with future and the "raw" enamel surfaces.
I'm wondering if we are experiencing a quality control issue with this stuff; there is just no reason for the vast difference we are experiencing in results?? For certain, once this bottle is gone I'll be testing the next one before using it on a model I've put a lot of time into! For now I'll be using it on my Pfalz Build, it appears to be a great product.
Cheers,
Lance
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I'm thinking it has to be QC issues as well, as the stuff seems pretty much totally idiot proof to me. I just tried some semi matte from a fresh bottle this a.m. and it worked perfectly. I have two other unopened bottles of various sheens which I will try next.
A pity we have to look at this stuff a bit sideways because it really is a great product when it works...
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I'm thinking it has to be QC issues as well, as the stuff seems pretty much totally idiot proof to me. I just tried some semi matte from a fresh bottle this a.m. and it worked perfectly. I have two other unopened bottles of various sheens which I will try next.
A pity we have to look at this stuff a bit sideways because it really is a great product when it works...
Bo,
Like you I have more of the stuff that I have not tried, a second Semi Matte, a full Matte or flat, and a Gloss. Please let us know how the other finishes work. Regardless of the outcome of your next tests it seems prudent to try each new bottle on a throw-away piece rather then find out the hard way that quality is not consistent! :o
Cheers,
Lance
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Regardless of the outcome of your next tests it seems prudent to try each new bottle on a throw-away piece rather then find out the hard way that quality is not consistent! :o
You're right, that is certainly prudent, but I decided to hell with it and sprayed the new unopened & untested stuff right smack dab on a real piece (the lower right aileron as it happens). Courage of one's convictions and all that. :)
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Lance, what was your (western) Canadian supplier for the entire Klear Kote line? If you got it internationally, did customs get pissy with shipping like they can with some paints?
Thanks,
LT
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Lance, what was your (western) Canadian supplier for the entire Klear Kote line? If you got it internationally, did customs get pissy with shipping like they can with some paints?
Thanks,
LT
Lindsay,
I have yet to find anyone out of country that will ship liquids, especially paints etc. I was able to get a few bottles of Mr. Kit paints I wanted to try out from, I think, Ultracast in Canada but no one else will ship paints. By coincidence I received a call from Comex Hobbys in Edmonton today saying my Mr. Metal Colour paint had arrived but, unfortunately the gent who had promised to mail it was incorrect and I'd have to come and get it, a four hour trip to downtown Edmonton!
For people in our end of the fair country there are two sources for the Alclad Line in Edmonton, Kites and other Delights in the South Common Mall and Great Hobbies on 75th Street.
Cheers,
Lance
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All acrylic paints can be posted airmail within Australia, enamel and lacquer paints can also be posted but they have to travel by road. The last lot of 'explosive' paints were sent to me from Melbourne by road, it took the same time as products that come by air, makes me wonder sometimes.....
I have yet to try the Alclad clear (klear) but with what has been said here it seems like a feasible proposition, I checked with my supplier last night and he has plenty of stock, is there much difference between the light sheen and the semi matte? which one do you use Lance.
Des.
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Definitely a diiference, light sheen is what you might call "egg shell", semi matte is quite flat but not dead matte . If that makes any sense.
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you can see by the glop that settles to the bottom of the bottles that Light Sheen has about half the matte medium or less than the Semi Matte, which in turn is about 1/2 the amount of medium in the full matte.
L-R Matte, Semi Matte, Light Sheen, Gloss
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zps72d1fb8c.jpg)
I am looking for a suitable set of subjects to spray to give you an idea of the range of specular highlight between them....
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..........and in answer to your question, Des, I'm using "Semi Matte". Per Bo's comment, I find it a little "flatter' then other "semi gloss' or "semi matte" products I've used.
Cheers,
Lance
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Left to Right:
Matte, Semi-matte, Light Sheen, Gloss, Nothing
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zps8eb4fc4c.jpg)
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zps0f783e86.jpg)
If you compare specular highlights you can see a difference between semi-matte and light sheen. Light sheen highlights are brighter and more sharply defined. Diffuse shading area is broader on the semi matte. Not dramatic, but perceptible.
FWIW, I tried to be very consistent with application and cleaning between subjects. Each tack only has a single coat.
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Very interesting comparison, Bo. Thanks for adding to the knowledge base.
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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Thanks Bo for going to the trouble and showing us the comparison, it looks like semi matte is the way to go.
Des.