forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: RAGIII on October 29, 2015, 10:50:33 PM
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I have begun hand painting around the engine panels and fuselage near the Machine guns on my Pfalz DIIIa. My plan was to use Misterkit Silbergrau. The question that arose is what color is Silbergrau? The Mister kit paint seems to be just a light grey. Should the color be very close to aluminum or do my fellow modelers like Misterkits' interpretation? Any info is appreciated!
RAGIII
(http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/rickgeisler/WNW%20Salmson%20and%20Aviattic%20Figures/wnwsalmsonandpfalz%20007_zpsmyunewov.jpg)
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Last night I read the article by Lance Krieg about this subject in the latest Windsock magazine.
From the article - the only genuine sample tested of the wing covering contained aluminium particles in clear dope (spray applied). On the aircraft the sample was from this presumably would have given a finish to the wings similar to the RAF post war silver scheme?
The article suggested (as I read it) that wooden fuselages may have had an oil based finish with aluminium in – I’m guessing that this could have resulted in a different tone.
The article also quoted a British report on a captured aircraft – it described the appearance as silver rather than grey.
After reading the article, my own view – for what little it’s worth - is if I was modelling the actual aircraft the sample was from I’d lean far more towards silver rather than grey, especially on the wings. It’s difficult to argue with the hard evidence of the dope/paint analysis. With weathering & a nod to ‘scale effect’ in mind I wouldn’t be looking for a bright silver finish but a definite silver’ish finish none the less.
Of course there’s the question of how typical the sample aircraft was (as the author says) but in the absence of any other hard information I’d be thinking it was typical of a factory finish for the DIIIa.
Silver or grey it’s a beautiful fighter. :)
Regards
Russell
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Rick,
My personal choice is "more aluminum then grey". I found a mix in an article by Steve Hustad years back and really like the finish it provides: 2/3 ModelMaster Flat Aluminum and 1/3 their Medium Blue Grey #2055. This of course is the old enamel line, I'm not sure if it's still available. The finish appears like a very "flat" aluminum with a definite metallic appearance. I'd think you could mix similar colours of other products or mediums and get the same results with a little experimentation. Here's the results:
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n583/lcarroll1/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2729.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/lcarroll1/media/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2729.jpg.html)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n583/lcarroll1/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2730.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/lcarroll1/media/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2730.jpg.html)
Hope this helps, it's just one of many options I'm sure.
Cheers,
Lance
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I have also read that article in Windsock International. And I share the Russell's opinion as well as Lance's.
A mix of siver and light grey is fine, IMHO. If I remember correctly I used 50/50 for my two Pfalzes built a few years ago.
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Thanks for the quick responses! I have taken the suggestions and added some, ( a lot), of Valejo silver to the Misterkit Silbergrau. The result seems to be satisfactory! We shall see....
RAGIII
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I would think that the amount of silver/aluminum vs. the amount of white/gray would depend on how you are weathering. If you're looking for a newer finish then the metallic should show in the paint, but if you're looking for a weathered appearance then not much if any at all. Also, the scale of the aircraft would also factor into the results with the 1/32 and larger scales showing some metallic and 1/48 little down to 1/72 none at all. :)
Chuck
IIRC, Ray Rimmel would suggest 2 parts silver to one part white for his interpretation of silbergrau.
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Well, Amigo, it appears I'm late for the ball, as you've already made the correction, but I'll chime in anyway. I agree with Russell, Przemo and Lance that a 2 to 1 mixture of aluminum and light grey is most likely correct base primarily on British accounts of "silver" Pfalz that they encountered. Looking forward to seeing your D.IIIa with paint on it.
Cheers,
Bud
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Well, I'm just chiming in to say that this is all fascinating and it makes me want to build a Pfalz.....and play with paint formulae.
I don't know if this has any bearing on the issue but I know that from using mica powder and other metallics in my work, the amount of metallic "sparkle" depends on how much aluminum powder is used in the paint formula. Sounds obvious, I know, but it is amazing how in some cases there is no "sparkle" at all unless the piece is rotated towards the light. My point being that an airplane in flight might appear to have a matte finish until it banked at which point it might appear to have a glossy or sparkly, metallic finish.
I will definitely not win the Noble Prize for literature for the above paragraph but I think you get my point.
Cheers from NYC,
Not The Bard
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Well, I'm just chiming in to say that this is all fascinating and it makes me want to build a Pfalz.....and play with paint formulae.
I don't know if this has any bearing on the issue but I know that from using mica powder and other metallics in my work, the amount of metallic "sparkle" depends on how much aluminum powder is used in the paint formula. Sounds obvious, I know, but it is amazing how in some cases there is no "sparkle" at all unless the piece is rotated towards the light. My point being that an airplane in flight might appear to have a matte finish until it banked at which point it might appear to have a glossy or sparkly, metallic finish.
I will definitely not win the Noble Prize for literature for the above paragraph but I think you get my point.
Cheers from NYC,
Not The Bard
Thanks to All who have responded. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Michael,
It is interesting that you mention the angle relative the "Sparkle" My current mixture looks to be the same grey as before unless light hits it then the Silver is quite evident. should be interesting when I airbrush the rest of the fuselage.
RAGIII
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I also read the article and will now be painting the interior light grey on my Pfalz ;-) Out with the green & in with the grey! Should be fun, no?
VB
P.S.
My mixture for Silber Grau is 2 parts mythril silver to 1 part Skull white. Both paints coming from the Games Workshop range. Thinned heavily with Tamiya thinners.
(http://www.bobsbuckles.co.uk/gallery/10-DIIIa.jpg)
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I'm also finishing up a Pfalz D IIIa with a silbergrau finish. I had the Misterkit version but couldn't find it (sold my house, moved) so I used a mixture of Tamiya flat aluminum and sky gray. I put in a little more aluminum though. From some angles it looks a little grayer and does have a more silver look when turned.
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Thanks Von Buckles and Old Albie for the continued input. I am attaching a newer photo and it is as expected hard to pick up a major difference. Perhaps it will show better once I airbrush the rest of the fuselage. Either way I like the results of my mix... kind of between Lances and Von Buckles.
(http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/rickgeisler/WNW%20Salmson%20and%20Aviattic%20Figures/wnwsalmsonandpfalz%20018_zpsobnjs7q3.jpg)
RAGIII
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G'day, Rick.
I remember puzzling over this as well, before giving up and deciding to buy the (then/still well regarded) Mr Kit paints. The Mr Kit paint is indeed a very light grey- couple of shades lighter than Humbrol 28- with no metallic cast at all. I used it on my Pfalz build and found it to cover nicely, but only over a flat enamel primer- it doesn't like bare plastic.
Whether the colour is correct or not is another question. The Pfalz factory-built reproduction looks "metallic" in the two photo's that were on the net (the link I have is broken, but someone may have a good one- Terri may know). The "Pfalz Grey" on the D.XII in the AWM doesn't look metallic, but it's also not original as the aircraft has been restored at least twice. And the low light won't help any metallic cast shine, either.
The mix you did up looks as good as any, but I thought the engine panels were left unpainted (itself another argument for a metallic paint being used, if the unpainted panels were considered a match).
Cheers.
Dal.
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G'day, Rick.
I remember puzzling over this as well, before giving up and deciding to buy the (then/still well regarded) Mr Kit paints. The Mr Kit paint is indeed a very light grey- couple of shades lighter than Humbrol 28- with no metallic cast at all. I used it on my Pfalz build and found it to cover nicely, but only over a flat enamel primer- it doesn't like bare plastic.
Whether the colour is correct or not is another question. The Pfalz factory-built reproduction looks "metallic" in the two photo's that were on the net (the link I have is broken, but someone may have a good one- Terri may know). The "Pfalz Grey" on the D.XII in the AWM doesn't look metallic, but it's also not original as the aircraft has been restored at least twice. And the low light won't help any metallic cast shine, either.
The mix you did up looks as good as any, but I thought the engine panels were left unpainted (itself another argument for a metallic paint being used, if the unpainted panels were considered a match).
Cheers.
Dal.
Thanks for the comment! I am still looking into the panels relative to being left Unpainted. Probably correct but I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the "Unpainted" thing. I am looking at photos trying to discern any variance in finish on Cowls that are not over painted with Jasta or personal colors. If necessary I can use a little SNJ powder to brighten up the panels.
RAGIII
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The final decision:
(http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/rickgeisler/WNW%20Salmson%20and%20Aviattic%20Figures/WNWsalmsonandPfalz%20008_zps55ybd3ue.jpg)
RAGIII
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Looks very good to my eyes Rick.
Des.
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It does look good Rick; is this the mix with Valejo Silver added to the Misterkit Silbergrau you mentioned earlier?
Cheers,
Lance
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It does look good Rick; is this the mix with Valejo Silver added to the Misterkit Silbergrau you mentioned earlier?
Cheers,
Lance
Thanks Lance and Des! Actually Lance, I went with a Testors Engine Silver and Hellblau mix ::) My reason for the change was that in order to do the Jasta 4 wound ribbon I will be doing a LOT of masking! I just felt a paint that might have a little more "Grip" was in order.
RAGIII
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There is a Pfalz D.VIII fuselage portion in the Berlin W&T Museum. A few years ago, I had posted in the WWI Aviation Forum and received as response from Hugo Triesch that the interior was a 'squirrel grey' or medium bluish grey. (RAL 7000). I shared this with Lance after his Windsock article came out.
We did not touch upon the exterior in our comments, just accepted as silbergrau. So, I would be interesting to see if any forum members live near Berlin.
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That's looking good, Rick. I should grab another Pfalz before they sell out- I'd like to do one in the metallic scheme as well as the one I did in grey.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Good info on the paint mixes! Would this color be in line with the early French Silver doped finishes? Prolly close, but duller with the addition of a percentage of grey? I have a couple of Pfalz's (Pfalzii?) and would def. do the metal and wooden portions differently. Does any think spray direction would affect tonal values with respect to the grain in silver?
Lovely builds shown!
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I too used to think the gray mixed with silver was correct for the Pfalz, to give the proper silbergrau color. But after reading Lance Krieg's article in the latest Windsock article, the tests on the paint samples they studied under a microscope showed only aluminum pigment, no white or gray was found. So based on this new evidence I would have to say there should be no gray mixed in, I'm going to use Model Master flat aluminum for my next Pfalz.
Also regarding Mike's question on the French aluminum doped aircraft, no gray went into that, it was a standard aluminum dope. I use Floquil's old silver as it gives a great semigloss finish and can be masked over with no worries unlike most of the metalizer paints.
Dave
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Dave, ET AL, any thoughts on alcad as an alum. finish? Just a base coat if you will, none of the fancy jet aluminium finishes. I know the French finish was doped with alum powder added, and so not to hijack the thread, was the Pfalz a similar finish? Am I reading this correctly?
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Mike,
Over the last few years I've contemplated this in regards to my forever stalled Nieuport batch build. Like Dave, I'm a Noop fan, and I've considered several ways to accomplish this. I've seen folks use Alclad without spraying it over the gloss black primer with interesting results.
Something some of you might try that I was going to do, and post the results here is this: get a piece of styrene, or plastic spoons, and spray one with Tamiya white primer, one with Mr. Surfacer (gray), and any other undercoat you wish to experiment with. I bet you dollars to donuts that you'll get a different effect depending on the color, etc. of the undercoat which will prove useful in recreating a variety of silver dope finishes.
These are just my thoughts, and it sure looks like I won't be trying it anytime soon (unless we do that French group build and then MAYBE my life will permit me some modeling time), so I'd like it if one of y'all would try it.
Warren
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Although well documented answers have already been given, I will add my 2 cents. I've also read in Windsock books that this 'Silbergrau' was a mix of clear dope and aluminum particles, which was found to prevent wooden airframes from putrefying and also improved cooling by lowering the temperature inside the aircraft. Knowing this, it appears on time pictures that this color was most probably rather flat as the Silbergrau painted D-III's don't look shiny at all. As for me, the method I used was painting the aircraft with a classic silver spray and overcoating with flat varnish. I was rather happy with the result.
RAG, your D-III fuselage paint looks rather good in my opinion.
About the cockpit color, I read that early D-III's were painted Idflieg grey-green, but later aircraft had rather mid-grey cockpits.
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About the cockpit color, I read that early D-III's were painted Idflieg grey-green, but later aircraft had rather mid-grey cockpits.
Any information about when this change came? Sounds a bit like the WW2 debate, about a change from RLM02 to RLM66 inside german cockpits...
Stefan
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Warren,
Thanks for the idea regarding Alclad. I usually spray right over bare plastic. I have a few flavors of silver, so may try a bit of mix-n-match with base tones. I'm sure the ply sections on a Pfalz would handle the dope differently than the cloth bits, so there is another variation in the mix.
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Hi Mike,
I have not used Alclad much, other than the Chrome silver for a 1/25 scale musclecar air cleaner, but I think it might look good, you can spray it overall with aluminum, then mask off the metal parts and use a semi-gloss coat on the fabric areas. would be good to experiment I think. One thing that does not look realistic to me (and I have seen at several contests) is when someone paints a Nieuport cowl with the chrome metallizer, or a bright aluminum that they polish to look like a bumper on a 1969 Impala.
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Thanks for all of the replies. Since the consensus seems to be plain old silver/aluminum I am glad I went towards the silver with my mix. When the time comes to do my Roden Pfalz DIII I will use some of my Floquil Old Silver straight from the bottle 8)
RAGIII
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Old Silver is a great spray medium as it has "grain" and one can vary the tonal values by choosing the direction of spray. So spraying the wing chord-wise, and the ailerons span-wise will make the silver have two tones. I'll be interested to see the look you get.