forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Topic started by: zavod44 on January 22, 2017, 03:18:53 PM
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After I finished my Gotha G IV http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=4859.0 , I started looking into the possibility of converting another into a G V. I was still concerned if it would be possible to make the conversion and then I made contact with Ron Kootjie as he had done a G V build. He told me he had a few sets to sell and at that point the build was on. So I took Ron's conversion but i wanted to take it to the next level. I decided to add the box tail, add the Sossfargestell and the redesign the nose and convert it to the G Vb.
So here's what I have to start the project. Obviously the WNW kit, the The Kootije set, lots of various HGW and Van de Rosten sets....who knows what will all be used
by the time this is all done...
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170114_144043152_zpsm9rpifpa.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170114_144043152_zpsm9rpifpa.jpg.html)
First order was to see if I could do the box tail? What I did was scan the plans from the Gotha! book, and enlarged them to 1/32 scale. Then I traced the plans for the box tail. Once I traced them I scaled them to the proper size and I cut them out of Acrylic on the laser. I then sanded a taper on the edges. Once I got the shapes the way I wanted, I needed to figure out how to to put on rib tapes that match the kit tapes. I tried to order the tapes from the different places like HGW but I wasn't thrilled. So I went back to Illustrator and I drew up some rib tapes. At work we have a tool called a digital printer. What I can do is print on hard surfaces and I can print different ink and adjust the thickness a little bit. So I printed the rib tapes and I thought they matched the kit pretty well. The rear top of the fuselage needs some modification. I taped the parts together to test the fit. I also taped it to a board to hold everything in place for testing........
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170110_131135062_HDR_zpsszdqimzs.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170110_131135062_HDR_zpsszdqimzs.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170110_131139238_HDR_zpsuvpptrxh.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170110_131139238_HDR_zpsuvpptrxh.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170110_131224902_HDR_zpslbfqlajt.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170110_131224902_HDR_zpslbfqlajt.jpg.html)
Then I turned to the cockpit. Ron Kootije included the bulge on the port side but honestly I didn't like the part. I thought it was not the correct shape
and I have pictures to show the correct look. So I cut the hole in the side and added the bulge. I'll need to patch in all the surrounding pieces to make it fit together.
The other element of the G Vb is the nose. It it shorter and it has a steeper angle. We drew up the nose in Rhino and I had a 3D part printed. I cut the nose off and I taped the new nose in place for test fitting. The gun ring mount is totally different as well. I laser cut rings to stack up to make the gun ring. I have also begun work on the new dash board.
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170108_161122592_HDR_zpshsfftbin.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170108_161122592_HDR_zpshsfftbin.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170108_161059014_HDR_zpsiq9fn71p.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170108_161059014_HDR_zpsiq9fn71p.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170108_161106845_HDR_zpsavkrzopr.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170108_161106845_HDR_zpsavkrzopr.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170108_161657519_zpswvy4oibg.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170108_161657519_zpswvy4oibg.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170108_162334021_HDR_zps83ictyzi.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170108_162334021_HDR_zps83ictyzi.jpg.html)
Long way to go, but it's a start.....
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very cool, watching with great interest
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What a great project! I really enjoy adding to and modifying a Kit and this approach is interesting to say the very least. After Market additions, 3D Printing, and scratch Building all combined to produce a true "one of a kind" Model. This offers a lot of excitement and pleasure to follow! As has been said here before, I'm comfortably seated, popcorn and cold one in hand, and looking forward to the show! :)
Cheers,
Lance
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As one who enjoys conversions and scratch builds this is most interesting. This scale is too big for me for a number of reasons but I am still going to follow with great interest as there are many good ideas her - and plenty more to come I'll bet.
Stephen.
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Intrigued... Your combination of after-market parts, scratch building and 3-D printing is a most interesting approach to creating the model you want. I consider myself more of an assembler. I do a bit of scratch work, on a minor scale when necessary, and I, like many others, enjoy being more creative with painting, weathering and similar effects. I am fascinated and appreciate learning from projects like this one.
I suspect you have access to certain CAD and printing tools at work? It seems to me that, given Moore's Law, at some near future point one might be able to incorporate CAD, "dense" printing and 3-D printing on a small scale into our modelers' tools inventory. Surely, that will move scale modeling to a new place.
Thanks for taking the time to chronicle your build of this interesting model.
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Like the others I am looking forward to seeing all of your scratch and aftermarket parts come together. Excellent start on the tail and nose sections!
RAGIII
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Great project. I will be watching with interest.
Jamie
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I will be following with great interest :)
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What a neat conversion project. Will be watching your progress with interest.
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oh - this looks fantastic - great start with those tail surfaces and front fuselage modifications! Really like the GV - sorta surprised WNW hasnt gone and done one yet...
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What a great project you have taken on and the modifications you have already done are excellent, as I enjoy scratch building I will be following your build with great interest.
Des.
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So The G V moved the fuel tanks to the fuselage where the ammo racks and the port side internal bomb racks are located. So I walled off this area with styrene. I will add some kind panel line so it looks like an access hatch, and add some rivets. There are no pics that I have found to show this area so it will have to be fantasy. Some of the G V's had the whole section filled in, but some don't. I'm opting to do the version that is not closed off.
So here is the area I'm talking about. The other thing I need to figure out is what color to paint this piece. I'm thinking it would be metal so maybe a wood surround and a metal door? An all metal wall? All wood?
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170122_180037356_HDR_zpsfxhuhcu2.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170122_180037356_HDR_zpsfxhuhcu2.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170122_175123436_zpse3ze5r94.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170122_175123436_zpse3ze5r94.jpg.html)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/IMG_20170122_175100567_zpsxfk9jnis.jpg) (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/IMG_20170122_175100567_zpsxfk9jnis.jpg.html)
Any thoughts?
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No idea if accurate or not, but below is a build of the 1/72 Roden GV and where they went with those fuselage fuel tank(s) (scroll to bottom of page for interior pics)
http://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=69911&sid=92b37228596d61da6fef3a34204cbe26
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Oh I like this, I'm gonna do this and add some details. These need some kind of filler valves, and some kind of gauges? Thank you sir....
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No problem - not sure if it adds anything but AZ Model appears to have went the same way with those tanks in their 1/48 kit from looking at the instructions:
http://www.findmodelkit.com/sites/default/files/az4860_5.jpg
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There's got to be a place to fill these? No?
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Sure - have to be...
I think that is a Gotha GV midway down the page here in this review of AVIATTIC's fuel cart - maybe a cap on the top(s) of the tank(s)?
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=1602
Interested to see if The Red Baron finds that pic of the tanks though....
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I do find it strange that the tanks are not rectangle, and I'm surprised they are not covered by a wall...If they were rectangle they would hold more fuel....
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But they all don't have it? You don't think thats an Aux tank sitting on the top of the fuse, above the internals?
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You might want to do a bit more research - it really does look like the tanks from the wings were just stacked on top of each other in the fuselage area, thus why the bulged out of the top.
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Great progress! I love the tailplane, great.
Manni
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Very impressive...
I wouldn't have the nerve (or ability) to take that on.
Good luck
Guy
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Forgot I had that Gotha! book myself - yeah those tank pics are interesting - wish there were more. The crash inspection report in the Gotha! book for GV 979/16 is also very interesting - it describes two tanks behind the pilot but that are "full fuselage" width, completely blocking the tunnel/walkway back to the rear gunner position.
Wonder if tank installation varied greatly on these a/c....
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There is a pic of one of the Gothas with the full fuel tank, actually there may be two. I'll get the page #'s when I get home.....
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There is a pic of one of the Gothas with the full fuel tank, actually there may be two. I'll get the page #'s when I get home.....
Ahh - yeah found one of them - page 57 pic 86
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The 3D printed nose looks great! No sanding afterwards? What material are you laser cutting for the rings? I have access to one at work & would like to make a few parts.
Steve
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No sanding on the nose, it printed incredibly nice. I am using acrylic sheets to laser, the rings. That's what I did the tail out of as well..
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Seems Pg 48 fig 73 has the possibility of the aux fuel tank on the fuse top on a G Va. Seems small for a fuel tank, but it seems to be the same device as the one we see in the hangar....
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In the back of the Gotha! book it says that the internal fuel tanks were made from Sheet brass, and they were 175 liters. Ironically the fuel tanks from the G IV would fit perfectly in that space. I'm still thinking that they would be square and not round. If they were round they would most certainly need to have some sort of rack to sit in and stabilize them from moving around. Do we know how many liters the G IV tanks were? If they are close to that size then they would have to be very similar in size????
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Unfortunately there is no known clear picture or illustration of the internal fuel tanks carried by Gotha G.V's.There is a description in the 'Ministry of Muntions' booklet,a 'Report on Gotha Bomber with notes on Giant Aeroplanes',which was produced in September 1918.
The booklet describes the tanks and their location thus:"Between the pilots seat and the rear gunners cockpit are placed the two main petrol tanks,which occupy the full width of the fuselage.The original intention of the designer was evidently to fit tanks of smaller capacity,shaped in such a way as to provide a communication tunnel between the pilots seat and the rear gunners cockpit.For this purpose the wooden bulkheads on each end of the tank space are deeply cut away on the left-hand side.With the existing arrangement of tanks,however,no interchange of personnel is possible.Another small point of interest is the inclination of the back of the pilots seat;for this purpose careful consideration of space has resulted in a wedge-shaped piece being let into the forward tank,indicating again that all possible means have been adopted to get the C.G sufficiently forward.The rear tank is of identical construction,and also possessesthis wedge shaped arrangement."
The booklet goes on further to state;"The two main petrol tanks carried in the forward prtion of the fuselage are equal in size,and have a joint capacity of 175 gallons.They are made of sheet brass,and appear to be well provided with internal baffle plates.On the left-hand upper wing,slightly to one side of the centre line of the machine,is a streamline gravity tank,strapped onto the upper surface,above which it projects;this gravity tank,which is used vsolely for starting purposes,has a capacity of about 10 gallons.It is filled from one or the other of the main tanks by means of a hand-operated suction pump mounted on the right-hand side of the pilots dash-board,as shown in Fig.27.The two main tanks work under pressure;an air pump of the usual type is mounted within reach of the pilot."
Hope this helps some..........Dave.
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interesting stuff Dave!
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Any chance this build will be revived??
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Any chance this build will be revived??
Are you asking if it will rise from the ashes?😄
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LOL!!!
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Well I dragged this back on to my bench. However I'm still torn over this fuel tank issue. I need to solve it and move on. I have three choices: One, just cover it over and block off the walls that are normally cut away. Two, try to figure out the Ministry of munitions report, which I really can't at this point, and three just come up with something that seems reasonable but it will prob be fictitious.
Here is my thought process....option number 1 seems to easy and somewhat of a cop out. Albeit it would be fairly accurate.
Option number 2 means I need to figure out exactly what the Ministry of Munitions report means when they say the fuel tank has a angled part that matches the angle of the back of the pilots seat. If the tank somehow sits up close to the pilots seat then what happened to the wall that is between the seat and the tank? is it removed? Is there a hole cut in wall that allows the fuel tank to poke through?
Option number 3 go with the fictitious set up......here are the pictures of my efforts. I really don't like this set up. I think I need to try to do something close to number 2 option. I'm thinking the two fuel tanks that go full width of the fuselage with an angle on the front of each tank
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/v61aSXVaWiECBSKi6)
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/v61aSXVaWiECBSKi6)
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/v61aSXVaWiECBSKi6)
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They are for sure not barrels. What do you think of the description of the fuselage on page 52 of the Gotha! book. What about the co-pilot seat description? Would it be mounted on the side wall? Below the bulkhead wall below the cut out?
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I think if the seat were mounted back farther then the pilot would hit his head on the turtle deck. I think my best bet would be to try to make some fuel tanks that fit in that space and there's an angle shaved off that matches the recline of the pilots seat back.....I just can't see them cutting the wall behind the pilot. Those walls have to be structural in some way and it seems that cutting any more would compromise that.....
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I am interested in seeing you move this forward.
I suggest setting aside fuel tank info and concentrate on the structural requirements of installing that much fuel weight into the center of the aircraft. I'm sure not all of the GV's were identical, crucial decision making info , and research info proves that fact over and over.
Need a confirming pic?
Here ya go:
(https://i.ibb.co/V39Q2Fw/05.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJydRkf)
There is a ton of info in that pic, none of it relevant to the fuel tank physical dimensions or placement.
Looks to me to be a rigid top cover , and a flexible, curtain?, across the back.
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In this picture you posted I think you can actually see the O2 tank sitting on the "co-pilots" seat. I found another pic where you can see the top covering but no "soft" cover on the cut away wall. I think I'll go with this set up. It's kind of a combination of what I was thinking and something that was a reality. I need to get this show on the road.
If you look at this picture just to the left of the windscreen you can see the small gap of the bulkhead cut out.
(https://oi193.photobucket.com/albums/z276/zavod112/tumblr_nkkvcgK5701ttiiaeo1_500_zpsbaslaig8.jpg) (https://s193.photobucket.com/user/zavod112/media/tumblr_nkkvcgK5701ttiiaeo1_500_zpsbaslaig8.jpg.html)
That being said what machine gun is mounted in the front of this Gotha?
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Good!
I have the artwork for those load out decals as well as the other stencil that are in that pic. I got them ALPS printed in white but the file will work in black as well.
No need to worry , as you are miles away from that stage!
The M/G has a sight on it as well , I cant remember where I've seen it...
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Do you think the thing that seems to be behind the pilot's head is the fuel filler? Initially I thought it to be his scarf, but upon zooming in on the photo it may be a small edge of the fuel filler cap.
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I'm sorry z44 I simply cannot immerse in Gotha research right now, I'd like to but am in a CAD learning curve at the moment.
There is a pic with the fuel cart and attendants , that may help with filler location.
But I would just forge ahead , making educated guess' as to fuel tank shape and filler location.
Pretty easy once you get going I would think....
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Hi,good to see you resurrecting this one.I found a GA drawing/plan on Flyingmachines.ru site.This vaguely gives positioning of these box like fuel tanks located in the fuselage of the Gotha,but again unfortunately they are not very precise,but at least its somewhere to start and it can give you a rough idea where they are located.
There is a photo on page 45 of the Gotha book from Albatros Productions,photo 63 showing a hanger scene with G.Va/Vb aircraft in various states of repair that shows a 'massive square fuel tank' in a G.Vb,but this only appears to be a single tank!
According to an article by the late Harry Woodman in the March 2003 Model Aircraft Monthly, the machine gun shown is a Parabellum model 14/17 fitted with a telescopic sight.
HTH and all the best...…….Dave.
Just been reading the New and Old kits-Add ons section and noticed that Gaspatch have released a Parabellum 14/17 machine gun with telescopic sight in their accessory range.