forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: Trackpad on July 21, 2012, 07:56:19 AM
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Hi,
We've just seen Rowan Broadbent of Pheon post a thread describing a new sheet of decals for "Captured" aircraft: an Albatros DV and a Sopwith Pup. Aftre whining to Rowan for quite some time about the Albi markings, here they are. Fine, except I now have to make a choice of lozenge decals. A quick check indicates that this a/c carried five-colour lozenge - so far, so good. Now the question is, what is the colour of the rib tapes?
Stephen Lawson posted a tutorial on lozenge applicaton some years ago which is still considered to be a first rate exposition. In it, Stephen writes:
Now let us continue on the subject of rib tapes. In normal doping practice the tapes were doped on after the first brush coat. Then they were sewn in place as there were cotton battens nailed to the wood rib caps before the wing was covered in the fabric.
Concerning German aircraft:
There are four types known to have been used from the factory.
1. Clear Doped linen tapes were used on various two & single seat. LFG Roland is one of these.
2. Lt. Blue or lozenge tapes were used ONLY ON OAW built machines.
3. Salmon pink or lozenge tapes were used by Albatros, Johannistahl.
4. Fokker only used cut strips of the lozenge fabric.
Given Stephen's expertise on the subject, I'm certainly leaning toward the "Salmon Pink" version of Rowan's decals, as photos of the a/c in question clearly show a uniform tape colour as opposed to a lozenge finish. Further, it appears that the DV was built at the main Albatros factory as opposed to their OAW subsidiary. All that said, I thought that I'd post this question for the cognoscenti to read and discuss if there are any opposing thoughts to the Salmon Pink option. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions or other comments will be most welcome! :D
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Well, here I am, answering...myself! Sifting through a couple of sites, I found two entries by Dan-San Abbott on the subject. DSA writes:
A. "The tape colors was (sic) to (my opinion) to identify the manufacture. The "salmon pink" tapes were only used by the Albatros and the light blue was only used by OAW. Albatros or OAW
would not have mixed tape colors. There are several points of the contention." (DSA, Aerodrome, 8 Mar 2010). (Note: I don't know the clear meaning of the statement, "There are several points of the contention.")
B. "The Albatros Werke used salmon pink tape on Alb.D.V/D.Va rib tapes. To my knowledge, I do not know of any other German aircraft builder that used pink tapes of any shade for rib tapes." (DSA, Great War Forum, 17 Nov 2004).
I fully understand that, at this late date, no one will really know for sure. The best we (or "I") can do is to fall back on the Law of Probabilities. Right now, it appears "probable" that the tapes on 4545/17 were Salmon Pink.
And once we have this definitely confirmed, we'll sort out the colour of Lothar's triplane's upper wing...! ::)
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Gary,
I support your logic on the "Pink" tapes for this one. Should be quite a subject in the "captured" livery C/W Rowan's excellent decals.
As for the colour of Lothar's upper wing, yellow over the streaked (original) finish of course. Reference................?? Cause I'd like it to be that way! (and also Voss's F1 had a bright yellow cowling!)
Cheers,
Lance ;D
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Well, here I am, answering...myself! Sifting through a couple of sites, I found two entries by Dan-San Abbott on the subject. DSA writes:
A. "The tape colors was (sic) to (my opinion) to identify the manufacture. The "salmon pink" tapes were only used by the Albatros and the light blue was only used by OAW. Albatros or OAW
would not have mixed tape colors. There are several points of the contention." (DSA, Aerodrome, 8 Mar 2010).
B. "The Albatros Werke used salmon pink tape on Alb.D.V/D.Va rib tapes. To my knowledge, I do not know of any other German aircraft builder that used pink tapes of any shade for rib tapes." (DSA, Great War Forum, 17 Nov 2004). (Note: I don't know the clear meaning of the statement, "There are several points of the contention.")
I fully understand that, at this late date, no one will really know for sure. The best we (or "I") can do is to fall back on the Law of Probabilities. Right now, it appears "probable" that the tapes on 4545/17 were Salmon Pink.
And once we have this definitely confirmed, we'll sort out the colour of Lothar's triplane's upper wing...! ::)
Dear old Dan-San! How I miss him.
I know he unearthed many colouring and marking details but he had a habit of stating things as being so without quoting his reasoning or sources. At least in statement 'A' the words "in my opinion" appear.
In Dan-San's opinion the tapes were used to identify the manufacturer.
In the opinion of others, the differentially coloured blue and pink tapes might ORIGINALLY have been intended to tone in with the top and bottom lozenge colours (blue upper, pink lower), but this was quickly found to be too time-consuming (application of a single tape wrapping around the leading edge and covering the rib locations top and bottom was much quicker) and the possibility of holding up production due to a shortage of the right colour of rib tape was seen as undesirable and unnecessary - particularly given the negligible impact of blue or pink tapes on the camouflage effect of the printed fabric, so rib tapes of whatever colour available were applied by either factory. NOTE I have NO evidence that this is true - it is an explanation of sorts and probably just as valid as any other until documentary evidence is unearthed - or if it has already been discovered, produced.
There is a view that the different rib tape colours can be discerned from period black and white photographs, thus a correlation between the perceived rib colour and the serial number has been made and the link of a particular colour to a specific manufacturer established. This may be the origin of Dan-San's opinion - I don't know.
It might just be possible to correlate the grey-shade of a rib tape to the grey-shade of a particular lozenge, whose colour is known from its shape and position and from there make a reasonable stab at saying the rib colour was blue or pink but that depends on the photograph being of good quality and the lozenges clearly identifiable. While photos of such quality do exist, there aren't many of them. At one point Dan-San was making pronouncements of colours in black and white photos based entirely on their grey-scale interpretation - he even was quoting Methuen colour references at one point. This approach was seen and proved to be false and he seemed to stop making such pronouncements after a while.
I am not looking to start a war of words here or to damage the memory and research credentials of a man I regarded as a friend and who did an enormous amount to aid our understanding of WWI aviation history and colours and markings. I just would like someone to explain these strictures about rib tape colours stating their sources and reasoning, so that we can verify their claims, or otherwise.
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Hi, Lance and Rowan,
Thanks to you both for your comments. I'm certainly not wanting to start a dustup on the topic either, just digging around to see what the consensus is. As I mentioned, I don't think that we really know for sure and I don't think that we ever will have the cut-and-dried, 100% answer. It's currently up to the modeller to make the call based on what he/she thinks is most likely, and I value the input of those "in the know," like Rowan, who spends phenomenal amounts of time and effort to ensure the accuracy of his decals. Although I currently tend towards the pink, there is no firm evidence one way or the other, as Rowan points out: all sorts of reasons why, and all sorts of reasons why not.
Crunch time for me will come when the "Captured Aircraft" sheets become available. I may have to make a hard-nosed, cold and logical decision...and buy both Albi rib tape colours: should have been a politician! ;D
Thanks again, gentlemen, both. I really appreciate your input!
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I share Rowan's philosophy on this. I have to, otherwise I would be forced to strip the rib tapes off my Hannover and let her languish on the bench until difinitive information comes forth.
Cheers,
Bud
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I believe were all more or less in agreement; there are some 100% verifiable facts regarding our favorite subject(s) such as technical data, documented figures and offical records and then there's the realm of the subjective. To state with certainty that this or that colour is correct or not is near impossible as remaining samples have faded and colour photography was virtually undeveloped. I like Bud's comment regarding definitive info and my tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Lothar's DR1 and Voss's F1 was meant in that spirit. The constant discussion on these topics is, to me, half the enjoyment of the hobby; one informed opinion is as good as the next and there's so much to be learned from the logic involved. I build to the specs where I can however on colours and sometimes markings I go to the best data I can find, there often are no absolutes. I dare say that a Time Machine adventure would be full of surprises for us all!
Bottom line, when I get to my Fokker F1 in Voss's colours it will have a yellow cowling; I've read what I figure is most of the discussions, articles, and regretably heated arguements on yellow vs. brown/green and I side with the yellow crowd...........and I'm confident in my decision and getting there was half the fun considering I havn't cut a piece off a sprue yet!
Cheers,
Lance
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I believe were all more or less in agreement; there are some 100% verifiable facts regarding our favorite subject(s) such as technical data, documented figures and offical records and then there's the realm of the subjective. To state with certainty that this or that colour is correct or not is near impossible as remaining samples have faded and colour photography was virtually undeveloped. I like Bud's comment regarding definitive info and my tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Lothar's DR1 and Voss's F1 was meant in that spirit. The constant discussion on these topics is, to me, half the enjoyment of the hobby; one informed opinion is as good as the next and there's so much to be learned from the logic involved. I build to the specs where I can however on colours and sometimes markings I go to the best data I can find, there often are no absolutes. I dare say that a Time Machine adventure would be full of surprises for us all!
Bottom line, when I get to my Fokker F1 in Voss's colours it will have a yellow cowling; I've read what I figure is most of the discussions, articles, and regretably heated arguements on yellow vs. brown/green and I side with the yellow crowd...........and I'm confident in my decision and getting there was half the fun considering I havn't cut a piece off a sprue yet!
Cheers,
Lance
How do you feel about blue for the face, Lance? Just tossing another fly into the already fly clogged ointment.
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/coyotemagic_photos/Over%20the%20Front%20Convention%20Oct%202011/DSC00441.jpg)
Cheers,
Bud
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Bud,
As likely (IMHO) as the White face I'll probably use. On the other hand, I note by the content of your threads, that you weren't born yesterday............and have an informed approach to such things......................blue you say?!? :-\ :o
Cheers,
Lance
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This isn't my model, Lance. This little gem was built by a good friend of mine, JR Boye, and was displayed at the Over the Front Convention in October. The consensus among the VERY well informed gathering was the same as yours. Could go either way. JR's arguement was that a Japanese kite, after which the face was modeled, would more likely have a blue face than white since the white wouldn't show against the yellow at a distance. As for me, I'm still on the fence regarding olive vs. yellow, but leaning more towards yellow the more research I do. When I get it sorted, I'll build an F.I. If I live that long. ;)
Cheers,
Bud
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This isn't my model, Lance. This little gem was built by a good friend of mine, JR Boye, and was displayed at the Over the Front Convention in October. The consensus among the VERY well informed gathering was the same as yours. Could go either way. JR's arguement was that a Japanese kite, after which the face was modeled, would more likely have a blue face than white since the white wouldn't show against the yellow at a distance. As for me, I'm still on the fence regarding olive vs. yellow, but leaning more towards yellow the more research I do. When I get it sorted, I'll build an F.I. If I live that long. ;)
Cheers,
Bud
Bud,
In no particular order, an OTF Convention, I can only dream! One of the best (my opinion) Aviation Artists, Russel Smith, chose the yellow with white face for his "Last Dance of the Hussar" painting depicting Voss's last mission against McCudden, Rhys Davids, et al. I have a numbered copy hanging in my home, a gift from my Son, that I treasure. Mr Smith does his homework for sure and his yellow with white is where I'm presently at. There's plenty of supporting and contrary opinions out there, and like you, I hope to live long enough to see the resolution and build the perfect (read correct) Voss F1.
In the interim, who has more fun then a bunch of WWI affictionados debating details no one can (REALLY) be caught out on.
Now, you may well ask, `what does all of this have to do with salmon pink rib tapes........ :-\ :-\ :-\
Cheers,
Lance
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Now, you may well ask, `what does all of this have to do with salmon pink rib tapes........ :-\ :-\ :-\
Cheers,
Lance
Equally controversial? ???
Cheers,
Bud
PS-Here's hoping you'll get to an OTF convention soon, buddy. Heaven on Earth.
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QUOTE: "I suspect that was merely coincidental - a suitable grade of material could be sourced in a particular area, so it was - it happened to be pink, salmon, or blue, depending what was available at the time. '
Well stated Red Baron. Further in support of your assessment the use of lozenge material cut into strips was also an option used. My logic is that the lozenge material was much more expensive and more limited in quantity then was plain material thus I'll bet lozenge was the last option employed for tapes. The old expression, "the only thing were sure of is..............were not sure" certainly applies.
Cheers,
Lance ;)
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QUOTE: "I suspect that was merely coincidental - a suitable grade of material could be sourced in a particular area, so it was - it happened to be pink, salmon, or blue, depending what was available at the time. '
Well stated Red Baron. Further in support of your assessment the use of lozenge material cut into strips was also an option used. My logic is that the lozenge material was much more expensive and more limited in quantity then was plain material thus I'll bet lozenge was the last option employed for tapes. The old expression, "the only thing were sure of is..............were not sure" certainly applies.
Cheers,
Lance ;)
I think it is worth saying that the use of cut lozenge strips is much easier to verify from photographs than the single-colour dyed strips. As far as the Albatros D.V/Va is concerned, I have never heard of lozenge strips being used for rib-tapes.
I believe the cost element Lance mentions is well worth consideration; it is a fair assumption to make that single colour "dip dyeing" of material, as used for the single-coloured tapes, was a lot cheaper than the four/five colour roller printing used for "lozenge" material - although economies of scale need to be taken into account. Perhaps if sufficient volume of Lozenge fabric was being ordered the cost reduced significantly and might conceivably have matched the dyeing cost for relatively small quantities of single-coloured tapes. Cheapest of all, of course, would be the plain linen tapes used by a number of manufacturers late in the war.
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It would be very cool if we had a source for plain linen tapes in all scales (especially 1/48), dontcha think, Rowan? ;) I've not seen plain linen tape decals anywhere and that would have been my first choice for the Hannover.
Cheers,
Bud
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It would be very cool if we had a source for plain linen tapes in all scales (especially 1/48), dontcha think, Rowan? ;) I've not seen plain linen tape decals anywhere and that would have been my first choice for the Hannover.
Cheers,
Bud
Although not 1/48th of course, WNW does include plain linen tapes in their decals!
RAGIII
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It would be very cool if we had a source for plain linen tapes in all scales (especially 1/48), dontcha think, Rowan? ;) I've not seen plain linen tape decals anywhere and that would have been my first choice for the Hannover.
Cheers,
Bud
While OOP now, Americal-Gryphon offered plain linen rib tapes Bud.
FWIW,
Warren
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Very interesting thread as I'm beginning to wonder what kind of rib tapes I'll have to apply on my WIP Albatros and the followers...
In the opinion of others, the differentially coloured blue and pink tapes might ORIGINALLY have been intended to tone in with the top and bottom lozenge colours (blue upper, pink lower),
Is that supposed to be the rule? is there any evidence or is it just a "habit" to use blue tapes on top and pink ones on bottom?
but this was quickly found to be too time-consuming (application of a single tape wrapping around the leading edge and covering the rib locations top and bottom was much quicker) and the possibility of holding up production due to a shortage of the right colour of rib tape was seen as undesirable and unnecessary - particularly given the negligible impact of blue or pink tapes on the camouflage effect of the printed fabric, so rib tapes of whatever colour available were applied by either factory. NOTE I have NO evidence that this is true - it is an explanation of sorts and probably just as valid as any other until documentary evidence is unearthed - or if it has already been discovered, produced.
I should say, unfortunately, this makes sense with what I've recently learned about props which could almost be of any type/brand depending on supplies. Why would it be different for rib tapes?
If the color of rib tapes is linked to the manufacturer, are there any tables that would allow identifying the maker from a/c s/n?
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Very interesting thread as I'm beginning to wonder what kind of rib tapes I'll have to apply on my WIP Albatros and the followers...
In the opinion of others, the differentially coloured blue and pink tapes might ORIGINALLY have been intended to tone in with the top and bottom lozenge colours (blue upper, pink lower),
Is that supposed to be the rule? is there any evidence or is it just a "habit" to use blue tapes on top and pink ones on bottom?
but this was quickly found to be too time-consuming (application of a single tape wrapping around the leading edge and covering the rib locations top and bottom was much quicker) and the possibility of holding up production due to a shortage of the right colour of rib tape was seen as undesirable and unnecessary - particularly given the negligible impact of blue or pink tapes on the camouflage effect of the printed fabric, so rib tapes of whatever colour available were applied by either factory. NOTE I have NO evidence that this is true - it is an explanation of sorts and probably just as valid as any other until documentary evidence is unearthed - or if it has already been discovered, produced.
I should say, unfortunately, this makes sense with what I've recently learned about props which could almost be of any type/brand depending on supplies. Why would it be different for rib tapes?
If the color of rib tapes is linked to the manufacturer, are there any tables that would allow identifying the maker from a/c s/n?
Welcome to the world of WWI modeling Vincent :) Dig around and you will find strong opinions but precious little hard evidence for many questions. DSA championed the idea of Blue = OAW, Pink = Johannistal; no one seems to know where this notion came from but that doesn't mean it was wrong. If you have the serial number of your subject you can easily work out the manufacturer. Otherwise you have to look for the little variations. WS "Albatros Fighters" is one publication that lists the production blocks and manufacturers by s/n. Remind me the s/n of your machine and I will look it up for you.
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WS "Albatros Fighters" is one publication that lists the production blocks and manufacturers by s/n
Thanks, I'll see if I can put a hand on it.
The s/n of my Albatros D-V is 2299.
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WS "Albatros Fighters" is one publication that lists the production blocks and manufacturers by s/n
Thanks, I'll see if I can put a hand on it.
The s/n of my Albatros D-V is 2299.
Vincentm,
I just checked in my copy; DV 2299/17 is/was in a batch of 400 ordered in May 1917 and if I interpret the Table correctly was Albatros Built.
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks. This mean that the underside rib tapes can only be pink: either because the Albatros factory used only this color, either because the lower tapes were always pink regardless of the maker. Now for the upper rib tapes, it's pink...or blue.
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Thanks. This mean that the underside rib tapes can only be pink: either because the Albatros factory used only this color, either because the lower tapes were always pink regardless of the maker. Now for the upper rib tapes, it's pink...or blue.
I don't think that is correct. Tapes were same color top & bottom. In fact same tape wraps all the way around the rib.
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Thanks. This mean that the underside rib tapes can only be pink: either because the Albatros factory used only this color, either because the lower tapes were always pink regardless of the maker. Now for the upper rib tapes, it's pink...or blue.
I don't think that is correct. Tapes were same color top & bottom. In fact same tape wraps all the way around the rib.
To the extent of my reading that appears to be true in the case of Lozenge Tapes; I have not seen any references to the lighter underside Lozenge being used for tapes, both upper and lower surfaces are stated as having the darker upper surface Lozenge Tapes.. On the other hand though I suspect whatever was close at hand could have been used. Being the same top and bottom makes sense, we'll probably never know for certain.............. Thankfully there were no PC10 and/or PC12 tapes.......!! ::)
Cheers,
Lance
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i have been interested in this subject for a while now and i still have no definative answer. the theory that the tapes were one piece and wrapped around the wing makes sense for ease of installation but i have to say i dont like the way it looks with upper lozenge tapes on the lower lozenge. to me it looks wrong. which most likely means i am wrong. but i just dont know.
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Thanks for the info. I like logic. So, if the lower rib tapes on an Albatros-built a/c can on only be pink (either because of an hypothetic upper/blue, lower/pink rule, either because of the manufacturer's habit), and if the rib tapes actually wrapped the whole wing in only one piece, then it means that rib tapes were pink on upper and lower wing side on an Albatros-built a/c!
I know that logic is not always the rule of reality, but at least it gives me good arguments to do so since Lörzer D-V s/n 2299 is an Albatros-built machine.
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Just to add my two cents, if you look at the Albatros DVa Stropp at the NASM, the wings were restored following the pattern of the original fabric that was saved, so I'm sure the pink rib tapes on upper and lower are what were on the original wings when they received it. (although further research tells us that these wings are not the original ones for that fuselage, but were probably replacements added after the war from various captured parts.) I would have to go with the pink rib tapes for an Albatros built machine, even though I built a Jasta 5 D.V with blue rib tapes years ago...
As far as the cost factor goes, if it was cheaper to use single colored rib tapes than cutting the 4 or 5 color upper surface fabric, why would Fokker use the more expensive method on the D.VII? As we have heard many times over the years Fokker was not one to spend extra money when he could get away with a cheaper method...
Dave
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Yes that makes sense. I've also seen pictures of the NASM D-V but I find the lower lozenge colors are weird.
The Vintage Aviator D-V replica in New Zealand is also the result of a very serious restoration as far as I can tell. The upper wing rib tapes are blue, but it is a D-Va and I ignore which factory built it...
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Here's an article on the lozenge and rib tapes on the Albatros DVa in Australia, very odd that the original rib tapes were Lavender! to me that is a light purple, a cross between blue and pink, but not the usual salmon pink color described by Dan San Abbott in his articles...
http://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2008/04/11/albatros-fabric-research/
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Richard's reply in another topic on this subject bears repeating... I dare say he is about as knowledgeable on this subject as anybody:
Again, the myth perpetuates...Dan San championed those conclusions - which have entered into WW1 aviation history and been repeated parrot-fashion ever since - based solely on his perceptions of black and white photos and had no more "proof" than anyone else. Windsock and many other publications over the years have supported his theories but I stress, they are not "fact" - no directive, Idflieg instructions, factory orders have ever confirmed the blue/pink/lozenge tape idea being determined by Fokker, Albatros or OAW.
The Australian Albatros at Canberra unearthed Lilac tapes which upon fading and beneath perished varnish can appear pink, the Smithsonian DVa blue and pink from different wings (different serial nos) , the Brome County DVII has a bit of everything! I possess a 5 colour sample with linen tapes over painted in the lozenge colours at the correct junctures!...
The use of linen tapes didn't really figure in Dan Sans directive and is quite possibly responsible for many "pale" tapes visible on photos, particularly of two seaters.
Not as convenient a story Im afraid, it would be great to think a simple statement would help us all make accurate models, but WW1 matters are never that simple.
For what it's worth I would suggest you use the OAW/ALB/Fokker theory as a guideline but make your own judgement..this is not intended as a "dig" at Dan San , by the way, he and his debating style brightened many dark corners of WW1 aviation study and I'm sure he'd have changed his stance in light of recent discoveries and information.
Best wishes, Richard
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=3404.msg57695#msg57695
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Another Great Thread For Our Group Build! 8)