Opening a can of worms- Voss Fokker F.1 colours

[Dave W]

The Roden 1/32 Fokker F.1 kit in the stash is calling me and just to make it more complicated, I want to depict the Voss scheme.

While the aircraft was well photographed there is some controversy over colours, especially the cowl and tail. I am opting for green cowling and white tail.

However there are conflicting reports of the base upper colour over which the Fokker green streaking was applied. Some say the F.1 had a clear linen/ buff base with green streaking; others say it was a light blue base. So which is true? The undersurfaces seem to be a blue so RLM 65 looks nice there.

So, upper surfaces- green over tan or blue ? All thoughts would be welcomed.

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

[Dave in Dubai]

Hi Dave,

http://voss.hegewisch.net/color.html

This link should comprehensively answer your question.

Best of luck!

Dave in Dubai

[macsporran]

From memory, McCudden describes it as "silvery blue". He was there and his book is pretty reliable as far as I am concerned.
Obviously the high altitude and bright sunshine would lighten the effect, but I take this as good enough evidence for overall blue with light streaking on upper surfaces.
But, hey, it's your model, go with your gut feeling.
S

[lcarroll]

     Having read the attachments carefully I still share Dave's original question: was the scheme overall grey-blue with the streaking as described or were the undersurfaces only done in the grey-blue, uppers left in natural linen and then streaked?? Perhaps it's just my reading of the article however I'm still not sure ........ The overall grey-blue as a base coat makes more sense to me, and as Sandy points out, matches McCudden's description.. As to the cowling and rudder, I lean towards the green (or streaking colour if you will) cowling and white rudder.
Cheers,
Lance

[Dave W]

Many thanks for the replies gentlemen. Much appreciated!

After reading everything, I'm going with an upper surfaces scheme of lightish blue with green streaking and light blue under surfaces. Green cowl and white tail.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australias

[Black Max 72]

Just to throw a few more worms into the can...

Though it is not connected with Voss, a Jasta 14 Fokker Dr.1 588/17 flown by Gftr Reinhold Preiss (the aircraft was the former mount of Staffelführer Johannes Werner) was brought down on the 9th June 1918 and Preiss was captured. From what I remember there was a RAF report on the airframe stating that it was all over blue base coat with olive streaking. I've seen this aircraft represented numerous times in different publications (I think the original article was in Cross & Cockade, but don't quote me). Seems unusual for such a late airframe to be finished this way? For such a long time it has been the general consensus that only the F.I's were finished in this manner (although that is now being challenged) and that production machines were bleached linen. Seems that the Fokker factory may have just made things up as they went along!

Regards
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

[cduckworth]

Ray Rimmel stated in one of the Fokker Triplane books he published that the three prototypes were overall blue with olive green streaking.  He stated the production aircraft were plain doped fabric with olive green streaking with the blue undersurface dope having a slight wrapping up the fuselage bottom and the horizontal tail surfaces. 

I've always thought, if the cowling and or tail were yellow, this would have been noted in the British reports.  But like others have said its your model pick out what argument or discussion you like the best.

[petrov27]

I believe the photo below is the Preiss Jasta 14 DrI after being shot down (hopefully that is correct!) in GregVan's photobucket

To my eye, it seems you can just barely make out the light color (underside blue) edge 1-2 inch wrapping on the horizontal tailplane topside where it is contrasted against the fuselage - this would tend to speak against an all-over blue coat under the topside olive green? But it is not clear so who knows for certain? Doesnt change much with the Voss discussion but I thought it interesting (hadn't heard of this particular triplane/pilot so some reading on the Aerodrome this evening was in order..... )

[Black Max 72]

I believe the photo below is the Preiss Jasta 14 DrI after being shot down (hopefully that is correct!) in GregVan's photobucket

To my eye, it seems you can just barely make out the light color (underside blue) edge 1-2 inch wrapping on the horizontal tailplane topside where it is contrasted against the fuselage - this would tend to speak against an all-over blue coat under the topside olive green? But it is not clear so who knows for certain? Doesnt change much with the Voss discussion but I thought it interesting (hadn't heard of this particular triplane/pilot so some reading on the Aerodrome this evening was in order..... )

That is a great pic, thanks for posting that. I don't think I've seen a picture of 588/17. Preiss did a pretty good job of bringing her down in one piece. It could be just the picture but does the streaking seem lighter than usual? The photos of 102/17 & 103/17 seem lighter in tone as well, could this be a higher reflectivity of a blue base coat shining through the olive streaking? Or maybe a more thinly applied olive or both? Just a thought.

Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

[RLWP]

Or less contrast in the photo, or the negative was longer in the developer tank, or the print wasn't exposed long enough...

It's very inconsiderate that WW1 photographers refused to use digital cameras

Richard

[Black Max 72]

Or less contrast in the photo, or the negative was longer in the developer tank, or the print wasn't exposed long enough...

It's very inconsiderate that WW1 photographers refused to use digital cameras

Richard

All very true But I guess that's what makes WWI aviation so fascinating, no standardized colours, black & white photography and only personal testimony and a handful of nearly century old scraps of faded fabric with which to deduce colours and markings. Add to that, that the Germans painted their arcraft in what appear to be some very striking schemes, it makes this field of study that much more interesting to me that we don't have colour photos from that time because we have to research and speculate and finally imagine what they looked like. I remember how exciting it was to see the TVAL Albatroses when they were rolled out in their Jasta 5 schemes mainly because we hadn't seen a real Albatros in full colour before.

Regards
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

[RLWP]

It is indeed a fascinating subject, and one that really needs a lot of careful research when drawing conclusions. The schemes themselves are complicated enough before you start to consider the vagaries of photography, how the photographic chemicals then represented the colours (orthochromatic film vs panchromatic), how poor some of the photos were being just snapshots.

Then you get the human frailties, like recollection of colour. Describing colour in the first place is hard enough without working in the fact that people are very poor at recalling colours.

And then we have the surviving relics, most of which are not their original colours due to ageing and the efforts to preserve them over the years. You can't really be sure with complete aeroplanes because we don't have records of what has happened to them in the intervening 100 years. Finally, there are the number of relics that are actually fakes. Pieces of WW1 aeroplanes were desirable at the time, hence the trophy hunting that went on. Add to that the value they have gained since and the result is there are definitely fakes out there

At least in this case we are working from a picture, so that eliminates some of the vagaries

It does leave plenty of scope for speculation and imagination, It's worth remembering what shaky ground we are on assuming anything

Mind you, it does leave me free to choose what colour to paint the front panels on my WNW Pup, if I ever finish it. I doubt anyone could prove me wrong

Richard

[RAGIII]

DSA and Terry Phillips were adamant that no triplane left the factory in anything but standard CDL with olive streaks on the uppers and blue undersurfaces. For years the debates would crop up and always it was the same result. Those that felt F1 102/ 17 and F1 103 were standard held to their theory as did those that believed they were overall blue with streaks. Reports were chalked up as frauds even when proven that there was a legitimate version of the report that implied blue overall with streaks. After YEARS of saying there was NO DIFFERENCE the two mentioned above decided the prototypes were covered with bleached linen so that was the reason the photos looked different than production types! When the report on 588/17 was posted and it said the aircraft was blue with streaks they actually said it was a "Typo" in the report. So yes they could be correct and as all have stated NO ONE can say they or anyone going with standard painting is wrong.

On the other side: Greg van Wyngarden did a very nice study of the prototypes in his Fokker DR1 Jagdstaffeln book by Albatros. In this he presented all of the known reports from RFC encounters with the F1s' plus the Legitimate report on the Voss Machine after it was shot down. His conclusion:

"So there you have it. A case could be made for nearly any interpretation based on which description you choose; everything from 'yellow and brown' to 'grey' 'sky blue' to 'light green'! The preponderance of accounts of grey and blue leads this writer to choose to believe that these two Triplanes were indeed given an overall coat of undersurface blue and then streaked with olive or green- brown, producing areas of varying intensity of color."

I think Greg is one of the most careful researchers and writers involved in WW1 research. If you have followed his books and posts on the Aerodrome Forum he is very hesitant to call out colors as being x or y, almost always stating other possibilities exist! I find it compelling that he went as far as to state his beliefs in the quoted paragraph 

So in the end as everyone seems to agree, the choice is yours 
RAGIII


I am pretty sure you have seen my choice but here is a link:


http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=7627.285

[skeeterbuck]

Dave, the question you asked has no definite answer. Unless some newly discovered source comes to light I think the question of Voss' triplane will remain unsolved. I always somewhat skeptical of contemporary eye witness sources for two reasons.

1) Being how people "see" color. Your blueish green may be my greenish blue.

2)If you're tasked as a historian to document as close as possible the colors of an aircraft, I would think that report would be pretty accurate. On the other hand, if you writing a military report your focus is not on accurately pinpointing the correct shade of color. To do that, I would thin that you would need to refer to some known and established color standard such as the Methuen.

If I were doing F.103 I would do the overall turquoise blue with the olive streaking and solid olive cowling. I think of the natural linen under the streaked olive as a "DR-1" thing.

Chuck

[lcarroll]

    "If I were doing F.103 I would do the overall turquoise blue with the olive streaking and solid olive cowling. I think of the natural linen under the streaked olive as a "DR-1" thing.

Chuck"

    After re-reading all of the comments and logic presented here I agree with your statement above, Chuck. Unless, as you've pointed out, some yet to be discovered information surfaces this appears to be the most logical interpretation of the info available.
Cheers,
Lance