Caudron G4 "Butterfly" C74 1916

[Nigel Jackson]

Magnificent so farXan. I'm really looking forward to seeing how you handle the inter-wing rigging.

Best wishes
Nigel

[xan]

I showed you the plane I will represent, the butterfly.
she belongs to the C74 squadron
This squadron fought in the north of France and in Belgium.
a particularity of this squadron is that in mixed belgium observers in the roup (5 for 30 observers)
It seems that this squadron distinctive mark when they were equipaded with Caudron was to have a red cowler with a white number and a white cowler with red neumber in the other engine.



The best know planes are the 7 and the 9 (Xmald's one), and this confirm this theorie:





Other  pics founded in the C74 page of the Denis Alben website confirm it
http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/escadrille074.htm





Meanwhile, if my "butterfly'" have two color different in the cowlers, the white one doesn't seems to be white at all.



another C74 plane seems to have the cowler of anther colour but the pics is so dark we cannot do any conclusions...



So i have to decide between several hypothesis

1) The pic is a poor quality one (every body knows that we don't have to trust very much in old B&W pics for colour interpretation) and I paint the colers in white with a fictive number , 4 for exemple
possible

2) It could be an belgium observer plane and he wanted to paint national colours in the cowlers (so red and yellow, number could be black why not)
I'm not very convinced with this idea

3) as saw in this draw, the cowler could  be light blue, using roundels paints.
possible refering to grey shades interpretaiton, but it does n't make very much sense in my point of view



4) the left cowler would be red with white number et the left one woould not have being peinted (replaced or any reason) and would be beige , as any normal caudron cowler; in that case, no numbers at left.

and you what do you think about it?

Xan

[Borsos]

Fascinating question. One of those I love to play around with 
I think I'd go with the blue cowling. There are several reasons:
to your hypothesis 1: I never heared about a b/w pic that changed the color of white to that tone shown here. I therefore think, that's the most improbable of the hypotheses.
To your hypothesis 2: Belgian yellow. As far as I know, yellow turns into a really dark tone on orthocromatic film. I won't stress the endless discussion about Voss' F. 1 cowling here, but a look at warm yellow toned wooden albatros fuselages supports that theory. So no Belgian yellow in my opinion.
To your hypothesis 4: a normal replacement cowling on the starboard side of this Caudron. That's absolutely possible in my eyes.

But: When I remember all the b/w pictures of French Nieuports and Farmans the blue of the national markings always looked very light. That seems to be another effect of orthocromatic film. It matches in my eyes quite exactly the tone of the cowling shown here. And: Somebody with much more experience than I have has written that especially squadron markings frequently were carried out with colors that were anyway available at the aerodrome. So the blue of the tricolore would have been at hand. And wasn't it a usual business in these days to paint the tricolore on many fuselages?

So if hypotheses 3 and 4 are both equally plausible and neither can be prooved wrong I'd go with blue. It looks better than just a beige replacement cowling. And, well, aren't there dogs that fly the Caudron on your last picture? Dogs! This picture can't be wrong... 
Borsos

[xan]

thanks to give your opinion Borsos.
I agree with you 1 and 2 solution are out.
for the blue solution, I don't understand why all the squadron planes are paint in red and white, and this one in blue...
by the moment 4th solution keeps my favour...

Xan

[xan]

Second episode of my doubts, the fuselage and engine colours...
I know noone had the answer but I'm just loocking for diferent point of view.
Anyway, write all this in this post helps me to do my choices...

so let's see what we have...

as far as I know there are three Caudron G4 autochromes.
autochrome are original colour pics (lumière brothers invent this system). autochrome pictures have reputaiton to keep original colour and resist at the time...

first one a lumière autochrome taken in Rosnay en summer of 1917, the G4 n°1547 of the C39.



Second one , an autochrome showing all C30 pilots in 1916. This picture have been taken in Rosnay too and perhaps it's the same photographer. Admire the uniformity of the uniforms!



The third one was founded in Lyon by Marc Chassard. It belongs to an unknow squadron.


We also have two caudron conserved in Museums: one in the MAE orf Paris and thi other one in the NASM near Washington.
both of them have been restaured, but the washington one seems to keep more originals elements.

the Le Bourget museum one:




and the NASM one:







Loocking at the autochromes, the second one is most interesting. The third one is very strange and seems grey blue, mean while the first one seems to be in the same colours than the second one.
By the way, it seemms evident the the Paris G4 paint have been based in this autochrome
If I am not Wrong the NASM one have kept is original paint , in the fuselage. it seems much more yellowish...


sur la fantastique maquette en scratch intégral de Maya32 au 1/32 que vous avez certainement encore en tête, on a en quelque sorte, un mix des deux tons:
in this wondefull al scratched 1/32 model, we have a mix with the cowler based in NASM colour and fuselage based in the autochrome colours...



I will have too choose between two options:

An 100 years old autochrome or an 100 years old plane's paint... 





I would say I think the autochrome resist better at past time than paint in the plane...

Jörg take as reference the NASM it seems (correct me if I am wrong)




Xmalt would be more in the autochrome spirit (with metal part in the same colour but lighter)



and you, what do you think about it ?

Xan

[xan]

I agree with you Edgar...
And as i friend of mine told me in my french forum, if an autochrome's colour is truely reliable, we can tell the same thing for a printed copy of it, even less for a numeric scan of a printed copy...

So no option stronger than the other one... I will test both of them and choose the one I prefer!

Xan 

[xan]

I went on with the engines nacelles. And it confirms the impression I had with the pilot nacelle, this kit as really fantastic...
all part fit well, they are very well thought, an pretty well detailed. I even could'nt add a rivet, all is represented...



Thanks god Edgar let us the oil level to remenber we are modelers..;



and what is more, the notice book is very clear...



I'am very impresionated

Xan

[ALBATROS1234]

Very nice.  I always enjoy watching your builds xan

[jamieg]

Great work, Xan.

Jamie

[Borsos]

Very nice, Xan. It looks awesome. That one will be another spectacular plane from your workbench!
Borsos

[RAGIII]

Continuing to be an outstanding build of what appears to be an outstanding kit! I really enjoy your builds as there is always a lot of research and back up presented along with the actual build! Really helps the rest of us!
RAGIII

[xan]

About the metal part's paint colour, a friend of mine gave those pictures.
it's the NASM caudron before restauration.




Ok the light is not good and watever youwant, but I can't help thinking the shade are the same than in the autochrome




Something else: the Machine Gun support.

basically, I founded in the pics faur MG support type:


1) The basical model "fixed"



2) the removable model with the tube out of the nacelle



3) the removable model with the tube out in the nacelle



those two one are the most seen in the picture

4)The most elaborated system, the two museum caudor are equiped with



CSM propose this version with great sublety PE. It had been a pleasure to mount this version, for sure more sprctacular in the final model...

but the plane i will represent had the third option:



So I scratched it:





we have now to study the rear MG support......

Xan

[xan]

for the rear Machine gun support, I thake as refence the NASM plane:





butterfly had a MG support, we can see the traingle, but the side support pipes looks different
...




I use archer stitching in the fabric zone  under the pilot nacelle.





The stitching is oversized but I just want to represent it
Represent the relief in the fabric zone could have been fun, but it was a big work in a hidden zone...
représenter le relief fr la toile et des liddes était aussi tentant, mais c'était beaucoup de boulot pour une zone cachée...

Well it's time to paint!

Xan

[Manni]

Wow, Xan
Absolute top work, nice to see the great progress on this butterfly.
Chapeau,
Manni

[xan]

Taking for references the NQSM caudorn 's pic before restauration, and the C30 squadron autochrome





That's what I did:





I will have now to get dirty the engines nacelles, a rotative engine projected oil all around...

Xan