Author Topic: Another Nieuport 24 question  (Read 2724 times)

Offline Borsos

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Re: Another Nieuport 24 question
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2017, 06:18:38 AM »
O.K., I came home faster than expected.
I can't add more to the struts question besides, yes I would say too it was canvas and painted horizon blue on early Nieuports, silver doped from Nieuport 16 N1109 onwards (probabely the first Nieuport painted in silver dope according to Bernard Klaeylé and Marc Chassard).

Now my two cents on the "Wing question":

I Checked the references you mentioned.
WDF Special, Vol. 2:p. 31, pic. no- 64 is that famous squadron 1 picture that is published in many publications. The Serials are erased by the censor, but it has a date: 27 Dec 1917. The first plane in the row, marked with an "H" shows a dark lower wing (solid color? I can't see no traces of a camouflage demarcation - neither I can see other Nieuports with dark lower wings...)
WDF Special, Vol. 2, p. 40, pic. no. 91 is T O Clogston in a Nieuport from 111 Squadron. Undated picture, no serial. There's also a dark colored lower wing (at least part of it).
besides of the WDFs I consulted "Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service", published by Cross and Cockade International in 2007 (sadly oop. today). It's really a valuable source when it comes to British flown Nieuports.

1 Squadron flew Nieuports 17, 23, 23bis, 24, 24bis and 27. Received Nieuport 17 in Jan 1917. The new Nieuports (24, 24bis, 27) were issued on 15 August 1917 and the squadron dropped their last Nieuport on 24 Jan 1918 in favor of Se 5a's.
Although the serials on the mentioned pic are erased, 1 Squadron surely flew the Ni 24/Ni 24bis B3607, B3608, B3609, B3612, B3613, B3614, B3617 and Nieuport 27 B3629.
On p. 130 the Nieuport marked with "H" is identified as a Nieuport 27 with the serial B3629. There's a color profile on p. 77 depicting this very plane with lower wings painted RED and red squadron/flight leader steams. The plane was flown by 2LT W W Rogers, 2Lt P Wilson and 2LT G B Moore (shown on the mentioned photo). On 17 Dec 1917 it overturned on landing (and was repaired? Probabely...).
There are many other color profiles in the book, several show Nieuports 24/24bis/27 in silver grey or French 5-color camouflage (introduced in October 1917).

111 Squadron flew in Egypt (not on the Western Front) and was equipped only with Nieuports 23/23bis. These were shipped unassembled, in parts and had to be reconstructed at Squadron level. They used them until Jan 1918. I quote P. 62: "There were never more than six or seven Nieuports on strength in 111 Squadron, of which half were always unserviceable." There are some color profiles of Nieuports from 111 Squadron as well, some equipped with camouflaged spare parts.

Given these informations I personally would say with quite few doubts that the dark lower wings were NO certain squadron marking but either camouflaged replacements or (B3629) painted in a color that was possibly red. The question is: If they used spare parts from other, camouflaged Nieuports, what camouflage color had these had? In the case of B3629 in my opinion much speaks for a solid color, so red would be a good choice, but PC 10 isn't impossible neither, because several British flown Nieuports 24/24bis/27 were repainted in PC 10 at the repair shops. Can't say anything about the 111 Squadron Nieuport besides that it should have been a Nieuport 23 or 23bis (contrary to the WDF that depicts it as "probabely a Nieuport 24bis"), probabely/maybe with a camouflaged lower wing (French 5 Color camouflage).

I of course cannot post these color profiles here due to copyright issues. But I can't see any problems in making a pic and email it to you, Tug, if you PM me your e-mail adress.

I hope that helps. Browsing through the book made me again wanting to build a Nieuport... :)

Best wishes
Borsos
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:50:40 AM by Borsos »
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Offline Suffolk Lad

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Re: Another Nieuport 24 question
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2017, 08:39:48 AM »
Hi Bo and Borsos -

I intended to answer this tonight but have hit a real tiredness peak so will respond tomorrow. My thanks indeed though guys  :)

Tug

Offline Suffolk Lad

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Re: Another Nieuport 24 question
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2017, 07:35:32 PM »
Hi Bo and Borsos

Boy was I tired, I guess that was the night before catching up with me   ::)

Bo , size of mice not withstanding  :D my thoughts were that given the component and its design requirement wrapping a thin section of tape round would offer little extra strength - especially in the apparent thin layer(s) and at such spaced intervals. Obviously it must add something but on the scale of things - were the part to be stressed enough to split - possibly not a lot. Thinking about the front strut - if that wrapping was more than one layer and continuous it would need to be a developed shape similar to VVV to be able to do so - not likely I fear. Whatever - as said, I can see now what's required and now have a clear vision that it's not a binding and as such just how they got it to stay at that angle on the front strut - at last my mind is at rest on this one  ;).

Borsos - thanks for coming back so quickly last yesterday

I have a lot to learn! For me, to-date, modelling has been about visual impression - to try to make something look as realistic as possible and images have always played the greater part in any initial inspiration. With input received on that last Nieuport build from yourself and the other kind members on here, and that of Lance and Rick putting me right on the SE5 I can see that one has to be so careful about getting the facts right too.

I really would value any help you can give and will PM you as suggested. I like the sound of the red wings but would like to do the Clogstoun craft with the twin Lewis mounting more. I find the asymmetry of one camou'd wing appealing too but I will now need to find info on 23's and see if the Roden kit can be used to convey one.

My thanks again Borsos and I must just say that once again I have found this Forum and it's most knowlegeable members to be so friendly and helpful at times like this - my thanks to all of you too, whenever you've taken time to answer.

Kind Regards - Tug

Online RAGIII

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Re: Another Nieuport 24 question
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2017, 04:13:59 AM »

I really would value any help you can give and will PM you as suggested. I like the sound of the red wings but would like to do the Clogstoun craft with the twin Lewis mounting more. I find the asymmetry of one camou'd wing appealing too but I will now need to find info on 23's and see if the Roden kit can be used to convey one.

My thanks again Borsos and I must just say that once again I have found this Forum and it's most knowlegeable members to be so friendly and helpful at times like this - my thanks to all of you too, whenever you've taken time to answer.

Kind Regards - Tug

Tug,
 I am afraid that the Roden kits are not right for the 23. The 23 was a slab sided Nieuport and did not have the rounded stringer and former fuselage nor the different upper wing. The 23 was in fact fairly identical to a 17 with the Vickers mounted in a different location. I don't remember but there may be a slight difference in the rigging. So the Hobbycraft/Academy NIeuport 17 is the only kit to use as a basis  :(
RAGIII
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Offline Suffolk Lad

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Re: Another Nieuport 24 question
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2017, 04:51:48 AM »
Hello Rick - My thanks but yes I have now realised that from the Vol 1 Datafile but thanks to some great help from Borsos I now have a subject in an N27 (B 3629) from 1 Squadron.

All this only serves to accentuate my extremely (read nil) knowledge on the subject all round - making the models is one thing getting them historically correct is another. I'd need another lifetime to begin to acquire such info. I have a feeling that I will be needing to ask more questions of members in the future - so far the response has been very kind - very kind indeed.

Thanks for your input too Rick - really, much appreciated  :)

Regards - Tug