forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Rigging for Everyone => Topic started by: Des on November 23, 2016, 08:38:56 PM
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Thank you Des, this is a very helpful tutorial.
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Thank you for your attention? ;)
Thank YOU (Przemyslaw and Des) both for both writing and posting it! :)
Jeroen
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Great tutorial! Thanks for all this extra work!
Borsos
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This is awesome - and perfectly timed. I'm just getting to rigging my first WW1 plane (WNW Fokker Eindekker E3). The tutorial is really well written and illustrated, and puts everything together in one place in a really easy to understand way.
Many thanks!
Dave
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Excellent tutorial! Thanks for sharing.
Eric
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Thanks for the great tutorial! Since my sum total rigging experience is the 4 wires on the W.29's floats, this will come in very handy.
Peter
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Des and PrzemoL,
I've created a PDF file from the individual pages of the tutorial. Is it okay for me to post it here for the convenience of other members who'd like to download it? The file is 4.75mb, and is a standard Adobe PDF file created with Acrobat Pro.
Peter
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Great presentation. I've been rigging using the "tube and eyelet" system for years yet learned several really neat "tricks" here. Well done, and Thanks! 8) 8)
Cheers,
Lance
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Wonderful tutorial! Even though this is the basic method I use, I learned a lot!
Mark G
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Des has given me the okay to post the PDF version, so here it is:
Rigging for Everyone (http://www.metrocast.net/~petero/Rigging%20for%20Everyone%20-%20by%20PrzemoL.pdf)
Peter
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Peter, Thanks for posting document
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This is a fantastic guide. Being a complete novice to rigging this will be very helpful. Thanks a lot.
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Thank you.
Best wishes
Nigel
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The rigging is what turns an "ordinary" plastic kit into a special model, virtually unique in the genre for aircraft. I assume that most kits don't have any rigging material therefore this is something we all end up scratchbuilding.
Thank you for putting up the guide.
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Awesome tutorial. I'll keep this handy for when I summon up a backbone and try rigging some of my birds. Many thanks.
James
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Excellent tutorial and thanks to Des and PrzemoL for making it available and Peter for presenting it in PDF format.
Cheers
Dave
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Thank you for putting this together! Very informative!
Steve
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I am so glad this is posted on the site! It has to be the best tutorial ever! Regards, Marc
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So no using of ez line at all for 1/32 aircraft ? Is it that bad ?
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First of all, I am glad there are so many people interested in my compilation. I truly hope it may help you in this step of WW1 aircraft modelling.
Derrick, I know people, including WNW team themselves, suggest EZ line for rigging. I know it may be easier to use it than monofilament. But in my opinion EZLine is too soft for rigging and stiffening the wing cellule in 32nd scale. It absolutely would not work for pusher tail booms. As for the wings, WNW kits have them very heavy (solid plastic chunks) and with larger spans (two seaters, not to mention Felixstowe) you may have problems with keeping the geometry without proper stiffening. Also, if one plans to transport models, to competitions or wherever, more stiffness is always better for the safety of your model.
Additionally, it is not easy to control the thickness of EZ line, when you tension it, it will contract across the thickness, and you may end up with parallel lines looking different. Monofilament keeps the cross-section constant, you will not be able to tension it that much so that lateral contraction shows off.
And finally, I find it more fiddly to glue the ends of a line without eyelets and tubes. Keeping the surface near struts free of glue stains can be a problem in this case.
All in all, the above presentation is only my proposal and a result of my relatively short experience with rigging. And by no means do I claim this is the only or the best way. It works very fine for me and if anyone tries it and decides it may work for him - fine. If not, no problem, either. ;)
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Just to add my 2 cents worth to what Przemol has already said.
I only build 1:32 scale so where structural strength is required I always use monofilament, the one I use is called Maxima Chameleon, it is 0.12mm. This fishing line is very easy to use and will take a lot of weight, CA bonds to it extremely well. Where structural strength is not required I use Modelkasten 0.13mm elastic thread, it is not as stretchy as EZ Line, it is round, does not require very much stretch to maintain tension, CA bonds it very well and paint takes to it.
Des.
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So no using of ez line at all for 1/32 aircraft ? Is it that bad ?
Derrick,
I use the same two products as Des for most of a rigging job and some EZ Line as well. Most times I'll use EZ Line for the Cabanes as it is very flexible and, on mounting the upper wing, the cabanes seem to require a little bending to fit and thus the wires remain taut. Exceptions recently are the tail boom assemblies of the DH.2 and FE2b; I had huge warpage problems, even with Modelkasten and in the end used EZ Line for most of the assemblies. It worked for me however the "flat" profile of the product does catch the eye up close.
I like the way Przemol puts it, there is no "best or only way" it's what works for you that counts!
Cheers,
Lance
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Excellent tutorial. Whats the consensus on Gaspatch turnbuckles? 1/48 or 1/32? I seem to remember people using 1/48 on 1/32nd builds as they felt they were overscale.
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I use their 1:48 versions for 1:32 Scale Builds for the reason you state. Great product but be careful with alignment, they don't bend well and if they are out of alignment with the line itself it's immediately apparent.
Cheers,
Lance
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Hi,
i wanna say thanks for this nice Tutorial and for the PDF! :D
Regards
Jörg
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Excellent tutorial. Whats the consensus on Gaspatch turnbuckles? 1/48 or 1/32? I seem to remember people using 1/48 on 1/32nd builds as they felt they were overscale.
I use 32 scale Gaspatch for main rigging lines, when they should be (not on British RAF wires) and smaller 48 scale ones for control lines.
Great product but be careful with alignment, they don't bend well and if they are out of alignment with the line itself it's immediately apparent.
Cheers,
Lance
Yes, they do not bend but one can create hinged connections, as I showed in the presentation.
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Prze,
Your solution for the alignment problem is excellent, I had some Type C's on hand and added a note to my "order book" to get more. I think my Type A's could easily be converted to "no ends" with a side cutter and a little filing as well. Again, excellent work on this lesson!
Cheers,
Lance
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Prze,
Your solution for the alignment problem is excellent, I had some Type C's on hand and added a note to my "order book" to get more. I think my Type A's could easily be converted to "no ends" with a side cutter and a little filing as well. Again, excellent work on this lesson!
Cheers,
Lance
Lance, I have found out that the 3D printed material Gaspatch uses for the turnbuckles is extremely hard, almost no chance to sand, drill or even cut. The only action that can be done on it is breaking.
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Prze,
Your solution for the alignment problem is excellent, I had some Type C's on hand and added a note to my "order book" to get more. I think my Type A's could easily be converted to "no ends" with a side cutter and a little filing as well. Again, excellent work on this lesson!
Cheers,
Lance
Lance, I have found out that the 3D printed material Gaspatch uses for the turnbuckles is extremely hard, almost no chance to sand, drill or even cut. The only action that can be done on it is breaking.
Yes, very difficult to work with, but I've had some success with it using the Tamiya Diamond file they sell for Photo etch. I have had NO luck at all trying to drill out the loop on the odd blocked one, the eyelet just snaps off!
Cheers,
Lance
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I will try a diamond file, then. Thanks, Lance.
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Thank You for this great tutorial. I will try next time to use some mono fishing line.
Manni
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For the copper eyelets what size copper wire do you use in 1/32? Also is there a particular type of copper wire or anything, example , wire from an old electric cord from a lamp.
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Lance, I have found out that the 3D printed material Gaspatch uses for the turnbuckles is extremely hard, almost no chance to sand, drill or even cut. The only action that can be done on it is breaking.
Yes, very difficult to work with, but I've had some success with it using the Tamiya Diamond file they sell for Photo etch. I have had NO luck at all trying to drill out the loop on the odd blocked one, the eyelet just snaps off!
Cheers,
Lance
They can be drilled out with a carbide drill bit; I've done it many times. You must work very slowly, and work in .5mm increments until you reach the desired hole size. they can also be chucked up and turned to clean up the barrels, and, on the albatros style, the ball ends as shown below...
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zpsa9977bff.jpg)
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The copper eyelets I make for my 1:32 scale models are made from 0.13mm soft copper wire stripped from electrical cables.
Des
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Thank you Prze. This is a really great tutorial and I'm happy to discover it as I contemplate rigging my first WW1 aircraft. I was just going to use EZ Line without buckles but now thinking again.
One thing that puzzles me...Lots of the rigging shown has turnbuckles at both ends of the line. From my ship modelling background lines come from fixed blocks and go to blocks which the line can be tensioned through - that is through sheaves in the running block. So - as on a ship - wouldn't there only be a turnbuckle at one end each line not at both? Turnbuckles at both ends would not be necessary? I could be entirely wrong here...
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So - as on a ship - wouldn't there only be a turnbuckle at one end each line not at both?
Correct. and on some aircraft (Sopwith Camel, Snipe etc, no "turnbuckles" at all! (but rather a tensioner at one end of the flat wires)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cAthnSBZs2U/VYaMTXITQKI/AAAAAAAATQE/cNg9cw2ljWs/s1600/1SnipeTavas.jpg)
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Thanks Bo
I'm guessing this what a tensioner looks like - on a Pup (?) at the aviation museum in Christchurch NZ. It is barely thicker than the line and at 1:32 would be virtually invisible - just a slight thickening.
Great photo of the Snipe by the way - all the lines at full scale look completely clean of rigging devices. Though good to note the lines are jointed where they cross. Expect this can be done with a wee dab of glue on a 1:32 representation.
(http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii556/aliluke/DSC00144_zpsk2i3bgxc.jpg) (http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/aliluke/media/DSC00144_zpsk2i3bgxc.jpg.html)
All the same I'm going to have a play with buckles on one model or another and Prze's tut is a really good guide for that.
Cheers
Alistair
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Thank you Prze. This is a really great tutorial and I'm happy to discover it as I contemplate rigging my first WW1 aircraft. I was just going to use EZ Line without buckles but now thinking again.
One thing that puzzles me...Lots of the rigging shown has turnbuckles at both ends of the line. From my ship modelling background lines come from fixed blocks and go to blocks which the line can be tensioned through - that is through sheaves in the running block. So - as on a ship - wouldn't there only be a turnbuckle at one end each line not at both? Turnbuckles at both ends would not be necessary? I could be entirely wrong here...
Bo gave a part of the answer aleready. 3 cents from my side - on German planes turnbuckles are present. And to my surprise, sometimes there are turnbuckles on both ends of lines! Like on DFW C.V - clearly visible in the photos. I have it done on my model. But it is not always so, one has to check the photos.
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Thanks Prze
An interesting discussion and I'm sure one that has been had before by very much more experienced WW1 builders than me (I have no experience at all so that is easy to surpass!). Thanks to Bo's post, I feel relieved of turnbuckle duty on the Snipe but will certainly try it with your guides on my next kit- which will be a German plane.
Cheers
Alistair
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The short answer is "check your references." If you are building a WNW kit, you are generally in luck; they choose subjects that are well documented. Their site is a treasure trove of historical photos that generally strive to illustrate all the details.
And don't overlook the reference library here (http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?board=23.0)!!! Jamo in particular has taken many hundreds of excellent photos of the TVAL birds with a modellers' eye. I've added a few from the museums I've visited, as have others.
Of course the museum examples too often have errors but collectively they give tremendous insight into these things...
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Bo gave a part of the answer aleready. 3 cents from my side - on German planes turnbuckles are present. And to my surprise, sometimes there are turnbuckles on both ends of lines! Like on DFW C.V - clearly visible in the photos. I have it done on my model. But it is not always so, one has to check the photos.
Dear PrzemoL
Your DFW is awesome but the theory on there turnbukles on both ends of ends of lines on DFW C.V i think is not correct.
I think that the confused existence of turnbuckls at the top of inner struts.
I suppose that the streching of the lines could not be at the point where the fuselage joins the wings and turnbuckle mounted on the top of inner strut.
I quote the following photos from the official WNW's site by labeling my thinking.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/Wing%20and%20fuselage%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20Halb%20FA%20274%20August%201917%200122-33%20-.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/Wing%20and%20fuselage%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20Halb%20FA%20274%20August%201917%200122-33%20-.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/Nose%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20Av%20January%201918%200495-037%20-.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/Nose%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20Av%20January%201918%200495-037%20-.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/Engine%20detail%20DFW%20C.V%20Av%20334-18%200071-25%20-.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/Engine%20detail%20DFW%20C.V%20Av%20334-18%200071-25%20-.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/Tailplane%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20LVG%205233-16%200527-032%20-.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/Tailplane%20detail.%20DFW%20C.V%20LVG%205233-16%200527-032%20-.jpg.html)
My thoughts do not break your amazing work
Cheers
Spyros
PS: Some photos of my own effort
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/24%20DSCN4903.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/24%20DSCN4903.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/26%20DSCN4909.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/26%20DSCN4909.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/30%20DSCN4908.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/30%20DSCN4908.jpg.html)
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Thank you, acewwi, for your input. It does make a lot of sense. It seems, I have erronously extrapolated the existence of turnbuckles on some cables at their top mounting points onto all of them. I will have to live with my model as it is now, too late for changes...
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A very interesting discussion.
It seems that as a general rule - turnbuckles on lower wing where the line goes to the upper wing and turnbuckles on the upper wing where the line goes to the fuselage. But, as Bo emphasizes, research is where the answer ultimately is found.
Spyros - your buckles are very impressive - how did you do them?
Now I just have to get a DFW CV which I hadn't looked at before - it is a very elegant aircraft.
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Dear Alistair
Because my English is too poor i use transtator to my posts.
So at the first opportunity i will try to describe the technique that i use.
Temporarily i post a few fhotos of my DFW rigging.
1. Undercarrage wires
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/1%20Eyelet%20mat.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/1%20Eyelet%20mat.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/2%20Eyelet.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/2%20Eyelet.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/3%20eyelet.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/3%20eyelet.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/4%20rigging%20mat.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/4%20rigging%20mat.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/5%20rigging.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/5%20rigging.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/6%20rigging.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/6%20rigging.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/7%20rigging.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/7%20rigging.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/8%20rigging.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/8%20rigging.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/9%20rigging.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/9%20rigging.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/10%20DSCN4586.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/10%20DSCN4586.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/11%20DSCN4786.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/11%20DSCN4786.jpg.html)
2. Control cables
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/12%20DSCN4560_1.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/12%20DSCN4560_1.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/13%20DSCN4119.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/13%20DSCN4119.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/14%20DSCN4787.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/14%20DSCN4787.jpg.html)
3. Bracing
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/15%20RSCN4841_1.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/15%20RSCN4841_1.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/16%20DSCN4848.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/16%20DSCN4848.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/17%20DSCN4847.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/17%20DSCN4847.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/18%20WINGS%20FIT%201.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/18%20WINGS%20FIT%201.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/19%20DSCN4854.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/19%20DSCN4854.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/20%20RSCN4833.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/20%20RSCN4833.jpg.html)
Happy New Year
Spyros
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/21%20DSCN4946.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/21%20DSCN4946.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj552/acewwi/DFW%20rigging/22%20DSCN4947.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/acewwi/media/DFW%20rigging/22%20DSCN4947.jpg.html)
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I've just printed out the PDF version for guidance during my WNW RFC Pup build. Thanks a lot gents!
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Such a useful thread. Thanks everyone for the huge labours of love here.
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Evidently, the older I get the slower I get. I've just come across this tutorial and found it most useful. With seven WNW kits in the cache and one more on the bench, this information is first rate for me. Thanks to all who put it together! 8)
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I found the tutorial interesting, but in many ways frustrating. I want to tackle rigging, but there are simply far too many options. turnbuckles, no turnbuckles, EZ Line, fishing line, stretched sprue, eyelets, no eyelets, drill through the wings, don't drill through the wings, etc. I don't know where to start. I have a couple Wingnut Wings models and I want to rig them, but their instructions tell me not to use turnbuckles and to just drill out the rigging holes and use EZ-Line. Is that what I should do? Is that the best way for a beginner to start rigging? To me it seems like the best way to go because it appears to offer the least number of chances for frustration. Using the tutorial here I need to buy wire somewhere to make eyelets and then find a female willing to give me her used pantyhose. I could try asking some women at work, but fear it'll lead to a restraining order or two. I just want someone to tell me which method will produce good results for the first timer. Is the method suggested by Wingnut Wings difficult?
This is like when my wife sends me to the store and asks me to get feta cheese. Then when I get there I see 12,000 different kinds of feta. Rigging is probably not that difficult, but it's daunting simply because everywhere a newbie like me looks, somebody suggests a different way of doing it.
Sorry for the rant,
Kirk
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In short there are 2 rigging options, functiional and non-functional.
the first is when you need the strength of a (fishing) line to help hold the wings together or prvent them from bending onder their own weight (resin kits for instance).
Then you use the eye-let/turnbuckle or eyelet/brass tube as a turnbuckle or the 'trough the wing' options, your choice.
The second option is with a stretchy wire, EZ line or similar. That does not provide strenght but also does not distort the plastic (WnW Taube comes to mind there). There the most used method is drill shallow holes and simply glue a lenght or stretchy wire (a little shorter then the actual distance so that it is slightly stretched).
Whether you NEED sytrenght is up to you/the kit in question, but if you do not need the strenght, EZ line is by for the simplest methode, all you need is thin CA glue, a small drill bit and some EZ line.
If want to go the other routes, Bob still does his eyelets http://www.bobsbuckles.co.uk/index.html (http://www.bobsbuckles.co.uk/index.html)
and does brass tube sections as well or you go the more expensive Gaspatch way http://www.gaspatchmodels.com/turnbuckles/ (http://www.gaspatchmodels.com/turnbuckles/)
I personnaly think most if not all kits don't need structural rigging if you build the model good and strong (pinning the wings with brass wire where necessary), but I still use the gaspatch way because I think it is the best looking.
So it half a choice about strenth and have about looks. Why not try a version on a plane and then an other option on the next? That is what I did and those early versions are not ugly or strange as you can hardly see the differance from a distance
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It's just that I read the guide here and think I need to order brass tubing, wire for eyelets, etc. and then I read the guide at WnW and they say all I need is EZ-Line and some CA glue. Then I go somewhere else and it suggests a third option, and so on, and so on. I'm thinking for the models I'm working on right now (a 1/48th Eduard Nieuport 16 and a DML/Dragon 1/48th Fokker DVII) the EZ-Line method would probably be best. Plus it just seems to be simpler for a beginner.
Also, I'll see many times where people mention painting their rigging. Can EZ-Line be painted or is it usually left as is?
Thanks for the help,
Kirk
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Kirk,
I use MR. Metal Color #213 "Stainless" to paint EZ Line, just did some on my Camel interior frame rigging earlier today. Works quite well.
Cheers,
Lance
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I tend to disagree with WNW suggesting EZ line for beginners. For me it is difficult to try to attach the second end of the line holding it with tweezers, aiming at the hole and waiting for CA glue to get hold.
For any WNW kit for a beginner I suggest using the basic version of structural rigging with two eyelets, two tubes and monofilament line. When you master it, one or two kits should be enough, then you may wish to try turnbuckles.
For practice you may also try to rig an empty plastic sprue. Drill two holes at opposite corners of a rectangular space, embed two eyelets and then try to pass a line through it with two tubes as if it was a biplane wing bay, as in pages 17 to 26 of the tutorial.
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This is like when my wife sends me to the store and asks me to get feta cheese. Then when I get there I see 12,000 different kinds of feta. Rigging is probably not that difficult, but it's daunting simply because everywhere a newbie like me looks, somebody suggests a different way of doing it.
Kirk
I think you have to just pick one method try it, could be on a new model or better still it could be on some shelf of doom carcass. It’s just play first few times so who cares... Also the model can be anything it’s just scrap to practise the new skill on. Keroburner with wing rigging to fuselage or tail
Once you are ok with the easiest method try another.. but unless your anal about it how many use more than one oR two methods.
Also structural rigging why is it needed if everything is pinned?
I loved the comment about feta. I thought it was just me trying to figure out which one to get and always getting it wrong
Ray
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I usually pin but still worry that wings may sag over time, so I always use structural rigging.It also makes a model much stronger.
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Kirk,
I understand your frustration, there are so many options! I completely agree with Przemol, a little practice with the eyelets and tubes using monofil Fishing line is the best way to start. You can "graduate" to the other methods as you gain experience and competence.
I would recommend you order an assortment of tubes and eyelets from Bob's Buckles, they come in different scales for the eyelets. A short PM to Bob will get you a recommendation for what you need along with a spool of monofilament fishing line. I prefer 0.12 mm or .005 inch line for 1;32 and used to use 0.10 in 1:48 Scale.
Later on you can start working with Gas Patch buckles, EZ Line, and/or Modelkasten elastic thread. If you use the tubes and eyelet method with the tutorial you'll master it in no time. It ain't "rocket science' but like anything it just takes a little practice!
Good Luck!
Cheers,
Lance
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Wingnut Wings says to use a CA accelerator to speed up the drying process, so maybe that's the best way to do the CA/EZ-Line method. I'm tempted by Bob and his buckles, but I have a question: do most people make/cut their own eyelets/tubes or do you buy them? I ask because I'd be tempted to make my own if I could get my hands on the right wire and tubing. From the front page of this site it doesn't look like it would be too difficult. Still, if I only have to go to one place for eyelets, tubes, and line, that's sort of hard to pass up.
Thanks,
Kirk
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Also, I assume different techniques are used for different lines. In other words, if I'm putting in a control line that comes out of the fuselage and attaches to a control horn, I wouldn't be using eyelets/turnbuckles for where the line emanates from the fuselage.
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Wingnut Wings says to use a CA accelerator to speed up the drying process, so maybe that's the best way to do the CA/EZ-Line method. I'm tempted by Bob and his buckles, but I have a question: do most people make/cut their own eyelets/tubes or do you buy them? I ask because I'd be tempted to make my own if I could get my hands on the right wire and tubing. From the front page of this site it doesn't look like it would be too difficult. Still, if I only have to go to one place for eyelets, tubes, and line, that's sort of hard to pass up.
Thanks,
Kirk
Making you own eyelets and cutting brass tube is absolutely feasible. Me, I am too lazy with eyelets and prefer buying Bob's stuff, except for those which I combine with Gaspatch turnbuckles. With tube I prefer the polyimide amber tubing. It is easy to cut with razor and when glued it "disappears' thanks to its transparency, contrary to brass ones which stand out strongly if not painted.
But you can start with what Bob offers - it is very fine material for the starters.
Also, I assume different techniques are used for different lines. In other words, if I'm putting in a control line that comes out of the fuselage and attaches to a control horn, I wouldn't be using eyelets/turnbuckles for where the line emanates from the fuselage.
Absolutely right. There are also some rigging lines which anchor points are inside, under linen or metal panels, then it is more realistic to drill a hole and glue the line into it.
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Kirk,
Making eyelets is easy. Making eyelets that are consistent within a batch takes a little practice, but If I can do it, anyone can ;)
I would encourage you to have a go. What's the worse that can happen?
Good luck and happy buckling!
von B ;) :)
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I'm thinking for the models I'm working on right now (a 1/48th Eduard Nieuport 16 and a DML/Dragon 1/48th Fokker DVII) the EZ-Line method would probably be best. Plus it just seems to be simpler for a beginner.
For 1/48 EZ-line is not that good option, because it is more flat, not round. So I use it in 1/48 as representation of the flat RAF-wires of British aircrafts. For others I use also such flexible "rubber", but more round one.
In general, you have to find your own way!
There are a lot of hobbies: sports, traveling ... You selected modeling.
There are also a lot of kits: car, bikes, tanks - You selected aircrafts.
There are a lot of aircraft kits: jets, airlines, sports - You selected biplanes.
There are a lot of rigging option .... You see? It is YOUR decision!
So I suggest to view the gallery of finished models of your intended scale here, see what you like (with or without turnbuckles for example).
Then look for build report of that models, see how the rigging was done in detail and use that as starting point. Try it out and check if the method works for you. Modify it for your needs/tools/whatever.
Good luck and happy rigging,
Frank
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"In general, you have to find your own way!
There are a lot of hobbies: sports, traveling ... You selected modeling.
There are also a lot of kits: car, bikes, tanks - You selected aircrafts.
There are a lot of aircraft kits: jets, airlines, sports - You selected biplanes.
There are a lot of rigging option .... You see? It is YOUR decision!"
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I thought this page in the forum was for people looking for help with rigging. If you're just going to tell me to go away and decide for myself then that defeats the purpose of this page. Anybody can make a decisions by themselves. My goal is to try and make an EDUCATED decision. Sorry to have bothered you.
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Easy now boys!
One thing I will do when pondering procedure is to go to the beginning.
In this case I suggest a review of Des' tutorials :
https://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/
This is 'Genesis Source Material' gentlemen.
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My goal is to try and make an EDUCATED decision. Sorry to have bothered you.
Sorry, if my answer sound THAT hard!
But you will get different answers, and still have to decide. That's why my second part of the answer points to the build reports. I create here very detailed build reports to answer questions like this, as man other members. So there you will find detailed explanations of different way, better than one could explain here in words. Thats why the second part of my answer.
Have fun,
Frank
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I did not think any answer was hard or anything.
But to answer the question, in truth any form of turnbuckle is actually out of proportion.
Even the very fine Gaspatch versions are way to large for their scale and most people (including me) tend to use the 1/48 version for some if not all 1/32 planes or connections.
Mixing them gives a nice result also, larger 1/32 turnbuckles for rigging and 1/48 versions for the control cables to mention only 1 of many possiblities.
That leaves a problem for the 1/48 builders (which i am also) as there is no 1/72 version to fall back on!
I tend to use the 1/48 Gaspatch version because I like the looks, but in that scale any form of turrnbuckle would look out of scale with the exception of a very fine tube slipped naked over a wire.
When you look at period photo's, many of the wires and their connections are hard to see, even in fairly close-up pictures. So That would mean a very small wire and a very small turnbuckle...
So I comprimise.... I like visable turnbuckles so I use them and I use a wire that is not too small in comparison or too big to notice. My choice (and that is my choice, not even my advice) turned out to be Maxima Chameleon 14/100 wire and Gaspatch turnbuckles on the one side and Bob's eyelet on the other side, connected with small sections of brass tubing (0.5 mm when I have the patiance, sometimes even 0.6 because they are sooo much easier then 0.5mm)
So yeah, it is mostly your decision, what technique or look you like best. There is no right or wrong anywway, as a perfect representation of reality in 1/48 is not done. A close aproximation as possible is all you can hope for.
I realise this might not help your decision or your worries, so the advise already given might just be the best... look aroud and see what you like best. Then see if you can replicate that.
Hidde
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Gee Bughunter I liked your answer. Quite Zen almost. Maybe something lost in text? It does address one of my biggest hurdles and that is, trying something and if it fails try something else. Most techniques, if they go wrong, are reversible. I think WNW instructions are for the best way to get rigging done without extra parts other than your actual rigging material. Others give a more realistic appearance. Reference material is your best friend for deciding what does and doesn't have turnbuckles etc. Study photos and drawings of the type you are modelling. If you're still here KirkH, Bob's Buckles are highly recommended and no one on this forum will ever brush you off.
Steve
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When you look at period photo's, many of the wires and their connections are hard to see, even in fairly close-up pictures. So That would mean a very small wire and a very small turnbuckle...
well just to throw more flies in the ointment...
period photos are essential, obviously. but they can't tell you everything. (even if you've got an intuitive grasp of how orthochromatic film registers color; i sure don't).
i don't trust period photos to give me an accurate idea of how turnbuckles should look. why? quite a few reasons. most of the photos that i've seen are too contrasty. most of what i see are reproductions of reproductions. many are from (or in) books printed rather coarsely (benday dots FTW!). most i've seen are pretty beat up.
here's my philosophy of deciding how things should look on a model (i guarantee it's not for everyone): i try to imagine an ideal viewing distance... the 'main view.' then i figure out what the 'close up' view should be. and then at a distance.
i try to look at a real aircraft (or ship or boat or whatever, but here we're talking aircraft) from those distances. what do the details and even the colors, look like from your 'normal' distance to your naked eye? (in both cases you have to consider the lighting conditions, which is why i prefer outdoors to indoor museums). i would then want to document with photos, but i think it's important to get that impression first. when i see 'walkarounds' they are mostly useful but they tend to be obsessively close-in on minute details. which is great for noticing how a detail is put together, but people who rely entirely on this sort of observation (in photos or 'in real') are the ones who tend to be OK with things like panel lines that look like canyons or rib tapes like ridges.
it's not necessarily easy to find somewhere with vintage aircraft (restored or replicated full size) i know... not impossible, though. there are air museums all over the world with biplanes, even here in Thailand. but if you can't do that, i'd say modern photos of restored aircraft or flying replicas give a better idea of an answer to 'would i even see turnbuckles?' than period photos. a MUCH better answer, due to the relative condition of the photos and a few AHEM slight improvements in photographic technology.
others may have their own approach for deciding this stuff, this is just one. also, everyone who approaches it this way is NOT going to end up with the same opinion of what works. or same priorities for what a model should look like.
so far, i lean toward 1/48 turnbuckles for 1/32 aircraft, but the adult version of my obsession with WWI aircraft is very new. i got some lookin' to do.
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Kirk,for the 2 1/48 kits you are currently building you could try basic monofilament rigging- no eyelets,just CA one end into holes partially drilled and the other end out through full holes.You can hold the free end with locking forceps or similar to tension the line while you apply a drop of CA,and then trim the excess once it sets.Some people bring all the lines out through the lower wing and touch up after while others leave the upper wing unpainted until after rigging through it instead.In 1/48 some people are happy to use a dab of thick paint to simulate turnbuckles,that's what I usually do these days,I'd rather put my time into the more elaborate methods on 1/32 kits where I think they do need to be represented
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I took the suggestion of one of the first posters and ordered some EZ-Line so I'll see how that works on my Nieuport. If I don't like it I'll try something different with my next plane.
Thanks for all the input.
Kirk
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I see, that the tutorial which Des made from my PowerPoint presentation is gone... I still have the original version, and will gladly share it but I do not know how to attach it here. It is ppt and pdf format.
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... the tutorial which Des made from my PowerPoint presentation is gone...
Have you found a way to post it? This fine thread is missing that critical piece.
All I could get from this thread is this excellent link: https://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/ (https://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/)
Gene K
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If I were an admin, I probably would. All I can offer is sending a pdf to an email address.
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I have come to a solution of the lost file problem. As easy as it could be.
Now the pdf file with my presentation is available at:
http://www.ikb.poznan.pl/przemyslaw.litewka/rigging.pdf
Hope it works fine for those who are interested.
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Thanks very much!!! Simply outstanding presentation.
Some questions on the pdf file as it came up on my computer:
1. Are the pictures on page 8 missing? Page 19 top photo?
2. I have thin white lines running horizontally across most pictures - a problem with my viewer?
Thanks again,
Gene K
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I have just checked. The photos you mention are in fact drawings - sketches, and in my computer they show up without problems. I am sorry, you have difficulties with them.
The white lines across photos are unfortunately a fault of my pdf writer, I could not find the way to get rid of them.
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Downloaded to keep !!!
Steve
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PrzemoL's rigging article has now been restored on the forum and can be found at Page 1 on this thread.
Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia
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This is a great thread and contains an incredible amount of info. Thanks to all who have contributed. I purchased some uschi rigging thread (elastic) and after measuring and cutting the first piece off the "bobbin" it curled up on itself making it difficult to lay out and measure without putting tension on it-hope that makes sense. Is it something I did/didn't do or is this just how the material reacts?
v/r,
Rob
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This is a great thread and contains an incredible amount of info. Thanks to all who have contributed. I purchased some uschi rigging thread (elastic) and after measuring and cutting the first piece off the "bobbin" it curled up on itself making it difficult to lay out and measure without putting tension on it-hope that makes sense. Is it something I did/didn't do or is this just how the material reacts?
v/r,
Rob
One of many reasons why I prefer the method with eyelets and monofilament line. No need to measure the sections exactly. Just cut it with abundant excess and then - trim.
Sorry, I cannot help you except for saying - give eyelets a try and I am sure you will never return to the method you refer to. ;)
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One of many reasons why I prefer the method with eyelets and monofilament line. No need to measure the sections exactly. Just cut it with abundant excess and then - trim.
Sorry, I cannot help you except for saying - give eyelets a try and I am sure you will never return to the method you refer to. ;)
[/quote]
Fishing line and eyelets are my normal method...I thought I would try this and see what happened. Now I know :)
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Good advice on the Uschi rigging.
If you cut it under pressure it will curl up.
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Good advice on the Uschi rigging.
If you cut it under pressure it will curl up.
Yep, that's what I did. It is possible to unreel some and get to some good stuff or have I ruined the roll?
v/r,
Rob
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I don't think the roll is wrecked . But let it fall off the bobbin rather than pull it maybe will help.
It was problematic for me as well until the materials qualities were discovered, which only happens through usage.
I also racked mine , that is to say I set up an axle through the bobbin.
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I rigged my Eduard 1/48 SE.5a using eyelets and Uschi elastic thread looped through Polyimide tubing at each end.
The thread was cut with plenty of slack then tightened and trimmed when installing.
(https://i.imgur.com/rRNE8TD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LZ62rjj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b1mODyb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nAr4vay.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3YnVGjb.jpg)
Eric
Eric
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She's a beaut Eric.
v/r,
Rob
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Wow!! 1/48?!!
Steve
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I rigged my Eduard 1/48 SE.5a using eyelets and Uschi elastic thread looped through Polyimide tubing at each end.
The thread was cut with plenty of slack then tightened and trimmed when installing.
Eric
Which weight of the Uschi rigging thread? Looks fantastic.
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Which weight of the Uschi rigging thread? Looks fantastic.
Thanks! I used the "Standard" weight Uschi thread. Good stuff. I also highly recommend Infini Model Aero Black Rigging Thread which is available in 1/72, 1/48, and 1/32 weights.
Eric
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This thread is great, but ...
The "bad" thing on this Uschi thread for brit planes is that it is round, but the used "RAF wires" were flat. In 1/32 the WNW manuals tell to use 0.1x0.3mm!
As result I use it for normal rigging, control wires and so on.
For later brit biplanes with RAF wires the EZ-line is a better match in 1/48, because is has a oval shape.
Cheers,
Frank
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This thread is great, but ...
The "bad" thing on this Uschi thread for brit planes is that it is round, but the used "RAF wires" were flat. In 1/32 the WNW manuals tell to use 0.1x0.3mm!
As result I use it for normal rigging, control wires and so on.
For later brit biplanes with RAF wires the EZ-line is a better match in 1/48, because is has a oval shape.
Cheers,
Frank
Good point about the EZ-Line. Just make sure you don't get a twist in it! I've used it for on occaision and it looks good, but the "bad" thing about elastic thread in general is that it provides no additional structural strength. I'm just wrapping up a WNW DH.9a Ninak and I opted to use conventional monofilament fishing line for the wings, preferring strength for those big wings over wire shape accuracy, which you'd not notice at normal viewing distances anyway.
Cheers.
Eric
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this is a very enlightening thread, especially for a beginner in rigging like me. It's interesting to read everyone's thoughts on different products and what works for them etc. So far i've rigged 2 planes, my first one was an eindecker e.iii as it's a good plane to learn on when it comes to rigging and the second was a be2c. For both jobs i used 0.18 stainless steel wire spun in a drill to straighten and stiffen it, as i build in 1/72 this is slightly over scale but negates the need to drill any holes so for a nervy beginner it seemed a good option, i also have a free endless supply so avoided possibly buying the wrong stuff. I have some fishing line somewhere so might see what diameters i've got and think about using that on my next build
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When I was doing a lot of modelling, I used many methods.
I first started rigging by drilling holes all the way through the flying surfaces and threading monofilament all the way up from a hole drilled in the lower main plane, through the hole drilled in the upper main plane and then down through an adjacent hole.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50882449363_c6e2527659_k.jpg)
This gave lots of structural integrity and provided you got the tension correct as you applied the CA to the holes to secure the monofilament, then the flying surfaces maintained correct dihedral and angle of incidence as well.
But, you had a clean up job afterwards to cover or finish the holes drilled in the top of the upper main plane and the bottom of the lower main plane. So there was sanding and painting required AFTER rigging... which was a real PITA.
I did many like this. The Roden Felixstowe F2a was a prime example, and in 1/72 scale, there really wasn't a more practical way that I knew of at the time. That model was built about 17 years ago and is still one of the only ones from back than that I still have in one piece.
Another method I tried on the Eduard Sopwith Camel was using nickle plated copper wire, I think it was about 0.5mm. I strightenned it by rolling it under a steel rule on a plate of glass and then fitted it between pre drilled holes in the flying surfaces. This time the holes were only part way drilled through the wing.
Unfortunately, I made the mistake of applying CA to both ends of each piece of wire, which meant that on hot days, I had saggy rigging.
I never tried that again.
The Roden BE2C, Brisfit and Eduard Albatros W4 were both rigged using the tedious manufacture of hundreds of tiny eyelets made from very fine copper wire CA'd into pre-drilled holes and then using the Monofilament and tiny tube method. The tubes were made from heat stretched cotton ear buds, cut to length with cuticle scissors.
I have never tried Ezyline. I have some, but... trying to get the ends to stick with CA scares me a little.
I have invested in some Albion Alloy brass tubing which will be here soon, and I think that the Eduard SE5a that I'm working on to get me back into swing of things will be rigged using this and monofilament... secured to the eyelets twisted from fine copper wire.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Please be aware, that the SE.5a was equipped with RAF wires, so no turnbuckles and eyelets. The "RAF wire" are flat, aerodynamically shaped steel ropes with threads on both ends, mounted in terminals. WNW tell to use 0.1x0.3mm in 1/32.
There are a lot of resources about it in this great forum.
Cheers,
Frank
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Worth mentioning again that monofilament nylon fishing line (not braid line) can be easily deformed to a flat profile by drawing it through a pair of round-nosed pliers. I run a black sharpie followed by a silver one along the now flattened line and it's ready for use replicating RAF wire. A section of polymide or brass tube at each end, similarly coloured, represents the terminals.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Please be aware, that the SE.5a was equipped with RAF wires, so no turnbuckles and eyelets. The "RAF wire" are flat, aerodynamically shaped steel ropes with threads on both ends, mounted in terminals. WNW tell to use 0.1x0.3mm in 1/32.
There are a lot of resources about it in this great forum.
Cheers,
Frank
I know, but at 1/48 scale... My rigging on the SE5a is going to be a representation. And admittedly, not entirely accurate.
I don't have small enough Taps or Dies in my BA tap and die set to accommodate accuracy.
Cheers,
Hugh
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I originally posted my rigging reference in Hints and Tips some time ago. It might be more appropriate here. I have recently updated it with the line from AK Interactive. Please see the attached pdf.
Stuart
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I’ve been using EZ Line for many years and recently discovered that it’s breaking down on several of my 1/48 builds. Anyone else seen this? I’m going back to fishing line.
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Sorry to hear that Charlie. I suppose all elastic (and this stuff does have elastic in it, no?) breaks down over time.
WD
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Bummer, Charlie, sorry to hear that too.
I've never really liked the stuff as it has no structural strength - which I used to need to support heavy resin wings.
Good warning though.
Sandy
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My first model with the flexible rigging is from 2016 - no problems so far.
But it is a known fact, that UV light can harm this rigging. But I think my glass cabinet protects the models (as glass filters UV) and the cabinet is far away from direct sunshine. Exhibitions are more dangerous regarding light, but this are "short moments" compared to the cabinet.
Another thing: I do not "over stretch" the lines - only a bit shorter as the length without force. So they are tight, but not under strong force.
Bye the way, the safe storage is also needed to protect the Aviattic lozenge decals against the UV light.
Cheers,
Frank
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There are other factors which will deteriorate elastic materials such as atmospheric ozone, temperature extremes, mold, and UV light from fluorescent tubes. Lighting your cabinet display with LEDs is a safer option for elastic rigging and Aviattic decals.